Indonesia Defence Forum

[baukiki88]

I think it is just an Israeli lobby pressure who wants US not to transfer the technology to us, and I hope USA consider their own interest first instead of helping Israeli lobbies. Indonesia is not against USA now and in the future, instead we have a potential to be an ally just like in previous time during Soeharto leadership, but we do help Palestinian cause.

BTW. Recently, Obama administration has urged Israeli to give Palestinian the land based on 1965 Israeli-Palestinian border. So, I am very pleased with that recent statement.

I still remember when Israel government protested UN decision to put 1000 Indonesian soldiers in Israeli-Lebanese border after the recent war. They are quite sensitive to us.

I dont think Israeli has something to do with these. It is more of USA itself. Dont forget we operate their UAV and upgraded our hawk with the israeli ( operation alpha ) . Israel is the least stingy country regarding TOT. They helped China to build J10, help india to build barak SAM.

S. Korea to create task force for indigenous fighter project

By Oh Seok-min

SEOUL, April 1 (Yonhap) -- South Korea plans to form an inter-agency team to handle the country's largest-ever acquisition project aimed at developing an indigenous fighter jet, officials here said Wednesday, which is already facing daunting challenges on the budget and technology transfer fronts.

Seoul's arms procurement agency is trying to speed up the 8.67 trillion won (US$7.84 billion) project, more than 10 years behind schedule. On Tuesday, it selected Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI), the country's sole aircraft maker, as the preferred bidder.

Codenamed KF-X (Korean Fighter Experimental), the project calls for Seoul to develop its own fighter jet of the F-16 class to replace the aging fleet of F-4s and F-5s.

Some 120 jets are to be put into service starting around 2025, with the additional production cost estimated at 9.3 trillion won, according to the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA).

"It is highly necessary to set up an around 70-member task force involving officials from the DAPA and relevant ministries, air force officers, and experts from home and abroad," a senior DAPA official said, requesting anonymity, stressing the need for a massive budget and transfer of cutting-edge technology. The team is tentatively named "Boramae (hawk) Task Force."

"We expect the task force to be launched in June after signing a final deal with the contractor that will oversee not only the whole development process but secure international cooperation," he added.

The DAPA aims to wrap up negotiations with KAI over price and technology-related issues by May for a final decision within the first half of this year. KAI joined the project in partnership with the U.S. defense firm Lockheed Martin, as the DAPA required bidders to have foreign technical assistance.

An artist's rendition of the indigenous Korean fighter jet (Yonhap file photo)

While the procurement agency is optimistic about securing "most of the key technologies," concerns have grown over whether the U.S. will provide South Korea with sensitive and sophisticated technologies, partly because the aircraft will be developed jointly with Indonesia.

In September last year, South Korea signed an agreement with the U.S. to receive key fighter technologies from 17 sectors in return for buying 40 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighters. The approval process by the U.S. government is under way.

South Korea is seeking key technologies including how to integrate the aircraft system with equipment such as radar and radio frequency jammers, according to officials.

"It would be far from easy for the U.S. to make a decision on the issue, as its technology would also be transferred to the Islamic state," an industry source said. Jakarta agreed with Seoul to cover 20 percent of the development cost.

In case the U.S. "refuses to share part of the key technologies we want, we are reviewing alternatives including seeking separate contracts with foreign assistance firms other than Lockheed in third countries," another DAPA official said. "Seoul and Washington have been in close government-level consultations on the matter."

graceoh@yna.co.kr

(END)

I think, Indonesia is not Islam country, but US still wont transfer technology to us in sensitive Tech..

Thats why Im skeptic from the start, Why would we invest 20% if we didn't receive technological "know how" from this project. Isnt it better to buy Eurofighter and get their TOT instead and build our own fighter (100% state own) ??

 

[CountStrike]

I dont think Israeli has something to do with these. It is more of USA itself. Dont forget we operate their UAV and upgraded our hawk with the israeli ( operation alpha ) .



Thats why Im skeptic from the start, Why would we invest 20% if we didn't receive technological "know how" from this project. Isnt it better to buy Eurofighter and get their TOT instead and build our own fighter (100% state own) ??

no lah.. i still hope this project can go succes.. IFX and KFX is same like our past project CN 235 with EADS.. its joint developtment and joint production.. i think it more preferable go with KFX than we toT from Ef typhoon because.. 100% toT is totally bulshit from sales.. IFX is pionering project before we get LFX in 5th gen..hehehe .. even Ef typhoon itself is high cost fighter with maximum only become 4,5 gen because not weapon carrying inside..

 

[Carlosa]

@madokafc @Indos What is the expected cost to Indonesia per KF-X fighter, everything included, including the development cost?

 

[Nike]

@madokafc @Indos What is the expected cost to Indonesia per KF-X fighter, everything included, including the development cost?

for the expected cost, cost of developing programme for both countries will taking at least 7.8 billion US dollar (Indonesia will hold the burden of 20 per-cent from every step of programme) until the prototypes will roll out, in which expected there is at least up to ten prototypes completed before LIRP and Indonesia will get at least two prototypes to be assembled in PT DI production line (so in the mean times Indonesia must providing another budget for the preparation of proper assembly lines for KFX/IFX programme). For the whole programme, Indonesia is expected to provide at least two billion US dollar for the development programme alone. And while the programe had reach production stages, as part of the commitment agreement at the start of programme, Indonesia had to bought at least 50 planes (the South Korean hoping Indonesia to taking the order for up to 80 planes), the cost for every planes is still not decide because the programme is still going on but most people made expectation the cost will be between 70 to 90 million US dollar per plane.

 

[Carlosa]

for the expected cost, cost of developing programme for both countries will taking at least 7.8 billion US dollar (Indonesia will hold the burden of 20 per-cent from every step of programme) until the prototypes will roll out, in which expected there is at least up to ten prototypes completed before LIRP and Indonesia will get at least two prototypes to be assembled in PT DI production line (so in the mean times Indonesia must providing another budget for the preparation of proper assembly lines for KFX/IFX programme). For the whole programme, Indonesia is expected to provide at least two billion US dollar for the development programme alone. And while the programe had reach production stages, as part of the commitment agreement at the start of programme, Indonesia had to bought at least 50 planes (the South Korean hoping Indonesia to taking the order for up to 80 planes), the cost for every planes is still not decide because the programme is still going on but most people made expectation the cost will be between 70 to 90 million US dollar per plane.

That's a reasonable cost, particularly for that time frame since prices go up every year.

There are a lot of rumors that Vietnam will get 12 SU-30SM jets and that the order will be sealed when the Russian vicepresident comes in the next few days. Viet pilots are going to India to train in those planes, so it makes sense.

 

[Jakartans@PkDef]

Indonesian Police Anti Terror Task Force
GEGANA (SWAT-CRT) unit.

 

[Carlosa]

for the expected cost, cost of developing programme for both countries will taking at least 7.8 billion US dollar (Indonesia will hold the burden of 20 per-cent from every step of programme) until the prototypes will roll out, in which expected there is at least up to ten prototypes completed before LIRP and Indonesia will get at least two prototypes to be assembled in PT DI production line (so in the mean times Indonesia must providing another budget for the preparation of proper assembly lines for KFX/IFX programme). For the whole programme, Indonesia is expected to provide at least two billion US dollar for the development programme alone. And while the programe had reach production stages, as part of the commitment agreement at the start of programme, Indonesia had to bought at least 50 planes (the South Korean hoping Indonesia to taking the order for up to 80 planes), the cost for every planes is still not decide because the programme is still going on but most people made expectation the cost will be between 70 to 90 million US dollar per plane.

I used to read that SK is also looking for a third partner for the program, any progress on that? I think Brazil was a candidate.

 

[Nike]

I used to read that SK is also looking for a third partner for the program, any progress on that? I think Brazil was a candidate.

Hmm, not anymore, they will proceed even without external third partner, timeline and dateline is everything for them. And as far as i know, Lockheed Martin is offering themselves to become the third partner instead and South Korean still considering their proposal but in meantime, South Korean Government will choose one of their internal body to become the third partner for the project.

 

[Carlosa]

Hmm, not anymore, they will proceed even without external third partner, timeline and dateline is everything for them. And as far as i know, Lockheed Martin is offering themselves to become the third partner instead and South Korean still considering their proposal but in meantime, South Korean Government will choose one of their internal body to become the third partner for the project.

That makes a lot of sense. Good.

 

[Indos]

@madokafc @Indos What is the expected cost to Indonesia per KF-X fighter, everything included, including the development cost?

Based on the previous plan, it will be sold not so far from 50 million USD per plane for Indonesian order ( but we dont know its international price). Just a targeted price I think, because even thought it is still in a very early phase, we still need to have a projected price per plane . About the real cost per plane, from that sales price it must be below 50 million USD. But how this price comes as a projected one is something that I dont know since I dont know their projected sales ( aside from 200 planes/ 120 SK+ 80 Indo ). It is cheaper of course to produce the plane in Indonesia and South Korea than in western countries, but since many parts will still be imported like engine and radar so we should wait how much the price of those parts after the engine tender process finished.

Talking about this plane market,

Philippine and Thailand will be a prospected buyers in South East Asia region, since this planes are already using STEALTH technology but still cheaper ( projected and planned to be) than F-35 and for Philippine they need to challenge 5 gen China fighters at SCS, both nations of course will not go for PAKFA for geopolitical reason. Middle Eastern countries are also a prospected ones. I hope at least UAE can be another buyer since they are quite supportive with our aerospace industries, their order for several CN-235 in a time when we needed the most is a good sign for that.

 

[Nike]

Based on the previous plan, it will be sold not so far from 50 million USD per plane for Indonesian order ( but we dont know its international price). Just a targeted price I think, because even thought it is still in a very early phase, we still need to have a projected price per plane . About the real cost per plane, from that sales price it must be below 50 million USD. But how this price comes as a projected one is something that I dont know since I dont know their projected sales ( aside from 200 planes/ 120 SK+ 80 Indo ). It is cheaper of course to produce the plane in Indonesia and South Korea than in western countries, but since many parts will still be imported like engine and radar so we should wait how much the price of those parts after the engine tender process finished.

Talking about this plane market,

Philippine and Thailand will be a prospected buyers in South East Asia region, since this planes are already using STEALTH technology but still cheaper ( projected and planned to be) than F-35 and for Philippine they need to challenge 5 gen China fighters at SCS, both nations of course will not go for PAKFA for geopolitical reason. Middle Eastern countries are also a prospected ones. I hope at least UAE can be another buyer since they are quite supportive with our aerospace industries, their order for several CN-235 in a time when we needed the most is a good sign for that.

Every country who wanna to get rid of their old but good F-16's, F-4, F-18, F-5II and don't have bucks or very close relationship with US to bought F-35 is the main target, that's why Lockheed Martin is very eager to joining this project because originally Lockheed Martin very eager to develop the intended class between F-16 and F-35 to fill the niche and then came South Korean with this idea.

 

[Carlosa]

Based on the previous plan, it will be sold not so far from 50 million USD per plane for Indonesian order ( but we dont know its international price). Just a targeted price I think, because even thought it is still in a very early phase, we still need to have a projected price per plane . About the real cost per plane, from that sales price it must be below 50 million USD. But how this price comes as a projected one is something that I dont know since I dont know their projected sales ( aside from 200 planes/ 120 SK+ 80 Indo ). It is cheaper of course to produce the plane in Indonesia and South Korea than in western countries, but since many parts will still be imported like engine and radar so we should wait how much the price of those parts after the engine tender process finished.

Talking about this plane market,

Philippine and Thailand will be a prospected buyers in South East Asia region, since this planes are already using STEALTH technology but still cheaper ( projected and planned to be) than F-35 and for Philippine they need to challenge 5 gen China fighters at SCS, both nations of course will not go for PAKFA for geopolitical reason. Middle Eastern countries are also a prospected ones. I hope at least UAE can be another buyer since they are quite supportive with our aerospace industries, their order for several CN-235 in a time when we needed the most is a good sign for that.

50 million is actually quite cheap, that might not include the development cost. Looks like Indonesia is getting a very good deal, no matter what.

Philippines should go for it, that makes a lot of sense. Thailand is happy with the Gripen so have to see.

Every country who wanna to get rid of their old but good F-16's, F-4, F-18, F-5II and don't have bucks or very close relationship with US to bought F-35 is the main target, that's why Lockheed Martin is very eager to joining this project because originally Lockheed Martin very eager to develop the intended class between F-16 and F-35 to fill the niche and then came South Korean with this idea.

I can see why Lockheed Martin wants to fill that niche, the F-35 is not suitable for most countries, is way expensive and not very good in many areas.

The thing to watch out for is that by using Lockheed Martin technology, it will require US permit for exports.

 

[Nike]

50 million is actually quite cheap, that might not include the development cost. Looks like Indonesia is getting a very good deal, no matter what.

Philippines should go for it, that makes a lot of sense. Thailand is happy with the Gripen so have to see.



I can see why Lockheed Martin wants to fill that niche, the F-35 is not suitable for most countries, is way expensive and not very good in many areas.

The thing to watch out for is that by using Lockheed Martin technology, it will require US permit for exports.

for the italic and bold
South Korean is quite adept to those kind of situation and in one or other way they can found a way to solve those problem

 

[Indos]

50 million is actually quite cheap, that might not include the development cost. Looks like Indonesia is getting a very good deal, no matter what.

.

We should have paid some development cost already ( 2 billion USD) in advance before buying those planes

PT Dirgantara that will produce the plane for Indonesian side even doesnt have any development cost burden at all, and even some of our engineers working at South Korea for KFX/IFX project are from LAPAN ( government agency) and ITB ( university), not all of them from PT Dirgantara.

But I doubt that it will be sold at 50 million USD each, even for our orders. It was just a projected price at 2011 time, not a deal yet.

 

[Carlosa]

We should have paid some development cost already ( 2 billion USD) in advance before buying those planes

PT Dirgantara that will produce the plane for Indonesian side even doesnt have any development cost burden at all, and even some engineers are from LAPAN ( government agency) and ITB ( university), not all of them from PT Dirgantara.

But I doubt that it will be sold at 50 million USD each, even for our orders. It was just a projected price at 2011 time, not a deal yet.

Yes, 50 million is too cheap and actually, at that time it was expected that it would be a single engine aircraft, but now its a dual engine, so right there it will cost quite a few extra millions.

What engine will be used?