Indonesia Defence Forum

[NEKONEKO]

I personally would like to see the Sigma-class family to be our main ship family class, that is every to-be retired combatant vessels would be replaced with a Sigma-derived models, from corvettes to frigate. Ahmad Yani-class would certainly be replaced by REM class, but if possible, then maybe Fatahillah-class would also be replaced with REM class? That means 10-12 REM class if the government is really in-line with this idea, but then we've heard about the "26 ships" statement, there's both my hope and concern regarding this, how much money, time and effort did the government are willing to invest for modernization of this scale? 2030~ would be the most likely years that it would already gain a considerable progress, but again it remains just a possibility.

The real deal would probably be Pattimura-class replacement, cause newer corvette models of similar specification is not really that popular, unless we are counting Sigma corvettes for the ASW role. IMO It's better to make the DPN class a multirole corvette (preferably with better armament aboard) rather than a dedicated ASW vessel, i don't think it have the capability to succeed ASW vessels like Pattimura, perhaps a custom ASW Sigma (with RBU-6000/ RPK-8 suite LOL? :v) would do, but that's remain just a possibility. If there's a dedicated ASW corvette available for our orders, i would be happy to know.

For this situation, the better choice would be locally built vessels, not necessarily a local model for corvettes and frigates, but joint or even licensed production would be good enough, as our pretty large production capacity and the quite fast delivery rate should not be wasted, not to mention that we could build it cheaper here. Of course i mean Sigma and Damen-made in general, but i also proposed more South Korean ships, cause we already have a quite big cooperation with them in the naval sector, namely the Makassar-class and Nagapasa-class. They have some models that interested me, like licensed U214 and even Mine warfare vessels, as in MEF 3 there's a requirement for maybe 6 Mine Warfare ships, gotta fill these KRI Angin Badai quota. We gotta trim our suppliers to Netherlands and South Korea for hulls, Thales and MBDA for sensors and weapons respectively, the former couple obviously already have a close cooperation with us since a long time and the latter cause most of our more modern systems were supplied by them.

Yeah Ahmad yani and Fatahilah class should be replaced by REM, and maybe the bakamla OPV 80m could be used as base design for pattimura class replacement.
Yeah around 10 PKR, ngarep.

I support the locally designed and build corvette, but for the number and the role wether asw or multirole I'm ngikut.
PAL could work together with cipta shipyard to redesign the opv 80m, and also act as system and weapons integrator.
PAL should have enough experience from the PKR, they even adding sonar to the proposed SSV 2 so I believe they can militarized opv 80m.
And I doubt about current pattimura ASW capabilities, more like patrol ship to me. DPN and TOM asw capabilities > Pattimura class, oh maybe adding more DPN class is not bad idea, WITH TOT and build by PAL.
Then we will have Sigma-class family to be our main ship family class just like you wanted. Not bad.

Ahmad Yani class (6) -> REM class
Fatahilah class (4) -> REM class
Pattimura class (14) -> Diponegoro class
X class from europe (the rumor is masif, terstruktur dan sistematis membuat military fanboys kalang kabut mimpi basah)

It become simple, maybe we can follow the Malaysia 15 to 5 programme,well kind of.

About the mine warfare vessels TNI also want that it can be used as Submarine rescue vessels too, some how we still don't have one. :/ (any news about 405 sea trial?)

 

[Nike]

I personally would like to see the Sigma-class family to be our main ship family class, that is every to-be retired combatant vessels would be replaced with a Sigma-derived models, from corvettes to frigate. Ahmad Yani-class would certainly be replaced by REM class, but if possible, then maybe Fatahillah-class would also be replaced with REM class? That means 10-12 REM class if the government is really in-line with this idea, but then we've heard about the "26 ships" statement, there's both my hope and concern regarding this, how much money, time and effort did the government are willing to invest for modernization of this scale? 2030~ would be the most likely years that it would already gain a considerable progress, but again it remains just a possibility.

The real deal would probably be Pattimura-class replacement, cause newer corvette models of similar specification is not really that popular, unless we are counting Sigma corvettes for the ASW role. IMO It's better to make the DPN class a multirole corvette (preferably with better armament aboard) rather than a dedicated ASW vessel, i don't think it have the capability to succeed ASW vessels like Pattimura, perhaps a custom ASW Sigma (with RBU-6000/ RPK-8 suite LOL? :v) would do, but that's remain just a possibility. If there's a dedicated ASW corvette available for our orders, i would be happy to know.

For this situation, the better choice would be locally built vessels, not necessarily a local model for corvettes and frigates, but joint or even licensed production would be good enough, as our pretty large production capacity and the quite fast delivery rate should not be wasted, not to mention that we could build it cheaper here. Of course i mean Sigma and Damen-made in general, but i also proposed more South Korean ships, cause we already have a quite big cooperation with them in the naval sector, namely the Makassar-class and Nagapasa-class. They have some models that interested me, like licensed U214 and even Mine warfare vessels, as in MEF 3 there's a requirement for maybe 6 Mine Warfare ships, gotta fill these KRI Angin Badai quota. We gotta trim our suppliers to Netherlands and South Korea for hulls, Thales and MBDA for sensors and weapons respectively, the former couple obviously already have a close cooperation with us since a long time and the latter cause most of our more modern systems were supplied by them.

France Netherland (Damen, MBDA and Thales) solution proved to be too expensive to be continue for our Navy, US Raytheon-Lockmart, SAAB and Danish Odense-Weibel solution seems to be the more exciting alternative for future programme of our Navy heck even right now South Korean had better chance

 

[HellFireIndo]

Yeah Ahmad yani and Fatahilah class should be replaced by REM, and maybe the bakamla OPV 80m could be used as base design for pattimura class replacement.
Yeah around 10 PKR, ngarep.

I support the locally designed and build corvette, but for the number and the role wether asw or multirole I'm ngikut.
PAL could work together with cipta shipyard to redesign the opv 80m, and also act as system and weapons integrator.
PAL should have enough experience from the PKR, they even adding sonar to the proposed SSV 2 so I believe they can militarized opv 80m.
And I doubt about current pattimura ASW capabilities, more like patrol ship to me. DPN and TOM asw capabilities > Pattimura class, oh maybe adding more DPN class is not bad idea, WITH TOT and build by PAL.
Then we will have Sigma-class family to be our main ship family class just like you wanted. Not bad.

Ahmad Yani class (6) -> REM class
Fatahilah class (4) -> REM class
Pattimura class (14) -> Diponegoro class
X class from europe (the rumor is masif, terstruktur dan sistematis membuat military fanboys kalang kabut mimpi basah)

It become simple, maybe we can follow the Malaysia 15 to 5 programme,well kind of.

About the mine warfare vessels TNI also want that it can be used as Submarine rescue vessels too, some how we still don't have one. :/ (any news about 405 sea trial?)

I don't think that we have to restrict the ship models to a particular number, the point is just simply to acquire the necessary and throw away the unnecessary. Honestly i would prefer that we are flexible in upgrading our capability, nobody knows what we need in the future and what new challenges will require new kind of weapon, like what if LHD is going to be a thing then? or a more potent Submarine model? or a possibility of a 6000 ton+ Destroyer? I wouldn't like it if we restrict our own potential by limiting the number of hull models we may have, being efficient is not just about having less.

Don't get me wrong, i know that having less models and more ships per model is a good thing and make maintenance/ logistics easier, but then the country's situation really demand various capability than just around littoral combat/patrol and coastal defense, having around just 5 is not very likely to do, 10-15 is more possible (also mind the LST, LPD, KCR, OPV, Tankers etc..., we do in need of these various things and we aren't cutting them down).

I have thought about PT PAL acting as the "national shipbuilding coordinator", overseeing the various subsidiaries that supplied TNI AL's ships, perhaps even transfering some tech know-how to them so that PT PAL's burden could be lifted a little bit, so that other shipbuilding companies could have the technology and quality near or on par with PAL. We may be seeing a Sigma inspired OPV by Batamec and SSV inspired LST by DRU if that could be the case LOL :v, just maybe, i'm not really knowledgeable of how these companies work. The important thing here is ordering more ships first and having larger contribution in the construction in each order, be it PKR, Nagapasa or even the upcoming Iver, only then perhaps we could successfully masters the technology and naval architecture of these models, like we did in the case of SSV.

Pattimura-class is indeed outdated, and that it could be unfit to perform today's ASW role. But DPN class, while labeled as ASW, it lack TASS and bigger/more ASW weapon, i would like to see a 533mm torpedo aboard and some more thing if available (RBU 6000?, but it's not that crucial), perhaps something similar to Kamorta-class?. DPN is currently just a standard Sigma multirole corvette, we can push it for ASW purpose tho, but it wouldn't perform any exceptionally. Perhaps it would be like this : "Destroyer" = Iver, perhaps "O" class, Ahmad Yani, Fatahillah= PKR, Corvette = DPN Sigma, Pattimura = perhaps DPN again, perhaps other thing. The 2 Abeking & Rasmussen mine warfare vessel confirmed for both mine hunting and submarine rescue capability, i am hoping for a mine laying capable vessels tho ( i heard somewhere there's a quota for exactly that), SK did have a model for a mine layer ship btw.

Btw, what is this "x" class?

https://lancercell.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/proyeksi-kekuatan-armada-tni-al-hingga-tahun-2023-photo/
https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...0-mls-ii-class-minelayer-of-the-rok-navy.html

 

[HellFireIndo]

France Netherland (Damen, MBDA and Thales) solution proved to be too expensive to be continue for our Navy, US Raytheon-Lockmart, SAAB and Danish Odense-Weibel solution seems to be the more exciting alternative for future programme of our Navy heck even right now South Korean had better chance

We've already pretty much chose Damen-MBDA-Thales (+ Odense?) trinity as our main surface combatant ships' supplier, i don't think it will be that easy to just suddenly abandon the plan for more orders to them, didn't see any other alternatives for now. 300 million USD per PKR is not so bad, although kinda too expensive if we are talking about large amount of ships needing replacement soon, but i don't see any other alternatives for the Corvette and Light Frigate program. Even though MBDA and Thales products are more expensive, i am supporting their products be the standard for our Navy, there's not many other choices that'll make more sense in aspects other than cost.

South Korea already have all thing we need, but for us it's mainly Auxillary ships and Submarines that we're getting. Their capability is mostly on the shipbuilding part, but they already mastered VLS, CMS and Sensors technology tho, but i doubt that we'll ever use the like of K-VLS, in the end if we ever order a South Korean combatant ship, we have to contact the US for their weaponry, much of a nuisance compared to ordering things from Thales-MBDA or any European defense company, obviously due to the EU and these companies being multinational.

Idk, we can't avoid high pricetags forever, the bar goes higher and higher by days, we should accept that fact and think more about the benefit in the long run than just the cost we pay upfront, unless we wanted to end up disappointed like our neighbor with their frigate.

 

[NEKONEKO]

I don't think that we have to restrict the ship models to a particular number, the point is just simply to acquire the necessary and throw away the unnecessary. Honestly i would prefer that we are flexible in upgrading our capability, nobody knows what we need in the future and what new challenges will require new kind of weapon, like what if LHD is going to be a thing then? or a more potent Submarine model? or a possibility of a 6000 ton+ Destroyer? I wouldn't like it if we restrict our own potential by limiting the number of hull models we may have, being efficient is not just about having less.

Yes, But we are limited by our own budget.

I mean limiting hull models based on their own classes but don't limit ship number for each hull models, and not limiting the type. Yes we need many type of ship that have different roles.

Heavy Frigate
Make it as multi year project and ask for TOT, and keep sticking to it until later succeeded by newer class. If Iver then stick with it no need to make it ganda campuran with de zeven / FREEM / Type 26 etc.
We have bright future.

Light Frigate
More PKR 10514 no need ganda campuran with gowind etc. We have bright future.

Corvette
Should have include TOT when we purchase DPN class. IDK, whatever we choose we should build it here. A little bright future.

LPD
Makassar and its derivative no need for damen enfoncer.
FAC
Kcr40, 60, klewang and its derivative.
LST
Teluk bintuni and its derivative.
Oiler
Tarakan and its derivative.
Submarine
I think for submarine is either keep sticking with CBG+, or maybe get another type that have different capability. 12 is quite a large number for submarine so maybe ganda campuran is ok for this one (6 - 6 split), new submarine that can carry cruise missile.

Pretty much fuckin agree with you.

P.S. what's with you and RBU6000?
X = iver

 

[Nike]

We've already pretty much chose Damen-MBDA-Thales (+ Odense?) trinity as our main surface combatant ships' supplier, i don't think it will be that easy to just suddenly abandon the plan for more orders to them, didn't see any other alternatives for now. 300 million USD per PKR is not so bad, although kinda too expensive if we are talking about large amount of ships needing replacement soon, but i don't see any other alternatives for the Corvette and Light Frigate program. Even though MBDA and Thales products are more expensive, i am supporting their products be the standard for our Navy, there's not many other choices that'll make more sense in aspects other than cost.

South Korea already have all thing we need, but for us it's mainly Auxillary ships and Submarines that we're getting. Their capability is mostly on the shipbuilding part, but they already mastered VLS, CMS and Sensors technology tho, but i doubt that we'll ever use the like of K-VLS, in the end if we ever order a South Korean combatant ship, we have to contact the US for their weaponry, much of a nuisance compared to ordering things from Thales-MBDA or any European defense company, obviously due to the EU and these companies being multinational.

Idk, we can't avoid high pricetags forever, the bar goes higher and higher by days, we should accept that fact and think more about the benefit in the long run than just the cost we pay upfront, unless we wanted to end up disappointed like our neighbor with their frigate.

You know, we should have capability to provide design for 1600 to 2200 tonnes class ASW corvettes and fill the major system with other contender than Franco-Deutch solutions. The Idea is to keep our Navy still being integrated into one big whole architecture system capable to do feed and relay data , sharing them in real time within microsecond ranges and still maintainaing major open architecture with the arsenal and hardware we already had. This why they will count on with system come from Indra or Terma C combat solutions, while they are slightly different from what we had already but still within the scope of european NATO combat link system based on Link 16 and Link Y, in which keep the wonder why the Navy starting to abandon Franco-Deutch solutions lately. Because Damen deals is actually are all that bad...

It just gossip, Navy and PT PAL along with Naval center design in Surabaya is still trying to completing a new Class of indigenous Corvettes design or light frigates for parchim class replacement program. Will be available for public closure at least two years from now on

 

[HellFireIndo]

Yes, But we are limited by our own budget.

I mean limiting hull models based on their own classes but don't limit ship number for each hull models, and not limiting the type. Yes we need many type of ship that have different roles.

Heavy Frigate
Make it as multi year project and ask for TOT, and keep sticking to it until later succeeded by newer class. If Iver then stick with it no need to make it ganda campuran with de zeven / FREEM / Type 26 etc.
We have bright future.

Light Frigate
More PKR 10514 no need ganda campuran with gowind etc. We have bright future.

Corvette
Should have include TOT when we purchase DPN class. IDK, whatever we choose we should build it here. A little bright future.

LPD
Makassar and its derivative no need for damen enfoncer.
FAC
Kcr40, 60, klewang and its derivative.
LST
Teluk bintuni and its derivative.
Oiler
Tarakan and its derivative.
Submarine
I think for submarine is either keep sticking with CBG+, or maybe get another type that have different capability. 12 is quite a large number for submarine so maybe ganda campuran is ok for this one (6 - 6 split), new submarine that can carry cruise missile.

Pretty much fuckin agree with you.

P.S. what's with you and RBU6000?
X = iver

Sorry for the RBU 6000 thing, i just find the thing interesting after seeing it on action, and the fact that they are the only one of it's class still widely operated with no western equivalent (SK have some interesting things like ASW Missile attached with a Blue Shark torpedo), but don't worry cause i'm not serious in talking about them. Hmm.. i thought the X was "O" frigate, cause Luhut already explicitly said "138m" so i think it's not that surprising if Iver did goes into the inventory, it's not just fanboy's wet dream, compared to the "O" frigate, cause this one would be surprising.

You know, we should have capability to provide design for 1600 to 2200 tonnes class ASW corvettes and fill the major system with other contender than Franco-Deutch solutions. The Idea is to keep our Navy still being integrated into one big whole architecture system capable to do feed and relay data , sharing them in real time within microsecond ranges and still maintainaing major open architecture with the arsenal and hardware we already had. This why they will count on with system come from Indra or Terma C combat solutions, while they are slightly different from what we had already but still within the scope of european NATO combat link system based on Link 16 and Link Y, in which keep the wonder why the Navy starting to abandon Franco-Deutch solutions lately. Because Damen deals is actually are all that bad...

It just gossip, Navy and PT PAL along with Naval center design in Surabaya is still trying to completing a new Class of indigenous Corvettes design or light frigates for parchim class replacement program. Will be available for public closure at least two years from now on

As long as the choices would not **** up the combat link system and logistics, i agree that if there's a more affordable and cost efficient options, then AL should go for it, if Damen deal is THAT bad tho, at least i wanna see a complete set of PKR as the replacement for Ahmad Yani-class. PT PAL already released the production plan for PKR 3 and 4 two years ago, i think they'll continue the program as planned, but i don't have any connection in PT PAL so i can't argue any further.

Would be interesting to see an indigenous corvette/frigate design, but i still kinda skeptic if there's enough ToT from previous deals for PT PAL engineers to be able to design it's own combatant ship, even though it's still a "gossip", PT PAL wanting to move further into the combatant ship sector is very predictable, i expected it to come after PKR 3 & 4 and Iver, but apparently it's starting now.

 

[Nike]

Sorry for the RBU 6000 thing, i just find the thing interesting after seeing it on action, and the fact that they are the only one of it's class still widely operated with no western equivalent (SK have some interesting things like ASW Missile attached with a Blue Shark torpedo), but don't worry cause i'm not serious in talking about them. Hmm.. i thought the X was "O" frigate, cause Luhut already explicitly said "138m" so i think it's not that surprising if Iver did goes into the inventory, it's not just fanboy's wet dream, compared to the "O" frigate, cause this one would be surprising.


As long as the choices would not **** up the combat link system and logistics, i agree that if there's a more affordable and cost efficient options, then AL should go for it, if Damen deal is THAT bad tho, at least i wanna see a complete set of PKR as the replacement for Ahmad Yani-class. PT PAL already released the production plan for PKR 3 and 4 two years ago, i think they'll continue the program as planned, but i don't have any connection in PT PAL so i can't argue any further. This first half of the year is surprisingly quite, considering that MEF 3 should've begun, there's so many things left unanswered, but then what we can do is wait and see.

They just following the order from user, but the Navy soon get the flaw from the PKR design and quite unsatisfied actually and people from KKIP and Menhan found the deals is not that ideal, if not they would put the program forward like how we strike the deal for the second batch of Nagapasa class as soon as the second PKR being finished a year ago. Instead the Navy brass, kkip and even Menhan himself join the search for ideal supplier

 

[HellFireIndo]

They just following the order from user, but the Navy soon get the flaw from the PKR design and quite unsatisfied actually and people from KKIP and Menhan found the deals is not that ideal, if not they would put the program forward like how we strike the deal for the second batch of Nagapasa class as soon as the second PKR being finished a year ago. Instead the Navy brass, kkip and even Menhan himself join the search for ideal supplier

What's your thought/ prediction? it kinda make sense that they are holding back the PKR deals due to internal problem/ dissatisfaction, so what's the solutions/alternatives?

 

[Nike]

What's your thought/ prediction? it kinda make sense that they are holding back the PKR deals due to internal problem/ dissatisfaction, so what's the solutions/alternatives?

Found other supplier, put pressure to current supplier to provide better deals by nego and bargaining, and we found Danish and Spain is not the part of Euro that put pressure on palm oil fiasco. Korean-US supplier is even in much better position lately, as the current trade war actually putting us to rebalance our trade surplus against US

 

[Jatosint]

They just following the order from user, but the Navy soon get the flaw from the PKR design and quite unsatisfied actually and people from KKIP and Menhan found the deals is not that ideal, if not they would put the program forward like how we strike the deal for the second batch of Nagapasa class as soon as the second PKR being finished a year ago. Instead the Navy brass, kkip and even Menhan himself join the search for ideal supplier

Wow, There's a design flaw in PKR's hull?

 

[Mr. Woof Woof]

Found other supplier, put pressure to current supplier to provide better deals by nego and bargaining, and we found Danish and Spain is not the part of Euro that put pressure on palm oil fiasco. Korean-US supplier is even in much better position lately, as the current trade war actually putting us to rebalance our trade surplus against US

Spanish's made corvette is a quite expensive.

The hulls from Denmark like iver, absalon and knud rasmussen are more friendly for our budget. And they also very kind to let us make the future ships at our local shipyard.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

 

[Nike]

Relatively good enough for first attemp

 

[pr1v4t33r]

Garuda to Operate 100 Chinese Drones
In Indonesia, delivering cargo to the farthest reaches of the world’s biggest archipelago has forever been a challenge. Now its biggest airline PT Garuda Indonesia sees a solution in drones.

It plans to procure 100 unmanned aerial vehicles from China’s Beihang UAS Technology to ship goods across the nation’s more than 18,000 islands. Director for Cargo and Business Development Mohammad Iqbal said that the state-run airline will operate the drones from 30 logistic centers, each with a dedicated airstrip, within five years. “This will totally change the landscape of the logistic industry in Indonesia,” Iqbal said in an interview at the company’s Jakarta headquarters. “The outlook for the cargo business in Indonesia is not just good, but very good,” he added.

With a wingspan of 18 meters (60 feet), a range of 1,200 kilometers (750 miles) and a cargo capacity of 2.2 tons the drones will be assembled locally under license from Beihang and cost about 30% less than conventional cargo aircraft, Iqbal further added.

According to Planning Minister Bambang Brodjonegoro, Indonesia is preparing to spend more than $400 billion by 2024 to strengthen its infrastructure and retain its lead as a key mining and manufacturing hub in Southeast Asia including 25 new airports, as part of the government’s Highway in the Sky plan to improve connectivity.

From September Garuda will conduct trials with three drones in the eastern part of the country which will last till the end of the year. Commercial runs will start early next year in the Maluku islands. The drones will fly seafood to Garuda’s cargo hub in Makassar for onward shipping to Hong Kong and Singapore.

Many parts of Indonesia are still inaccessible, despite massive investments in roads and bridges during President Joko Widodo’s first term- the eastern fringes, such as Papua island in particular. The difficult mountainous terrain there makes ground transportation extremely difficult and uneconomical. Bolstering its cargo operations would also help Garuda cope with falling passenger demand as a result of rising ticket prices, said Fahressi Fahalmesta, an analyst at PT Ciptadana Sekuritas Asia.

Garuda would need government support to operate the drones. Not only would the military-grade machines have to use transmitters to relay their positions and other information, air-traffic controllers would need to be trained to manage the unmanned aircraft. The unmanned aircraft will further aid e-commerce in Southeast Asia’s biggest economy, where the rise of online shopping has boosted demand for logistics and shipping companies.

https://dronebelow.com/2019/07/01/garuda-to-operate-100-chinese-drones/