Indonesia Defence Forum

[Gundala]

If US offer Advance Eagle to counter it, how is it?

I would love to have F15EX in our assets, but its simply too rich for our blood right now. Not to mention our AU has more complete set of Russians missiles compare to US one. Let them naturally phase out while we are building our new direction whether its Europe or US.

I still thinking F-16V is the wise choice for us at this moment. By having alot of F-16 we can be relatively secure if we are not getting parts for one reason or the other. IOC & FOC wont be hard to get as our pilots already familiar with it compare to having F15EX. We need this 2 SKA to cover those hawks that suppouse to be retired somewhere around 2025. The objective should be maintaining current number of fighters.

What we can do after is adding force multiplier to the already existing fighters/assets such as having tanker/EWA/Upgrading existing one/Data linking/missiles etc. This should be right while waiting to see if we can have economic rebound after 2021.

 

[Lasa-X]

Can you not thinking about China for just a second? I told you I hate China as much as you do.

Sweden? Really? Dude, have the U.S. or Europe ever punished them with military embargo?

Thanks to Suharto, huh? It's really convenient that right at the end of his reign, after saying yes to them for decades, they eventually showed us how they really see us by embargoing us



If by "latest F-16s" means it's our F-16D (our F-16D is the same as Singapore one's, right?), then I'm okay with this.

but If that means we have to buy 3 squadrons of F-16V first, then I'd have a 2nd thought.



I don't mind bartering. Let them have our military exercise and let us have their arsenal

TNI AU F-16D definitely different from more advanced F-16D+ RSAF.

When TNI AU feels proud of e-MLU F-16A/B (basically block 52 equivalent) fleet later, RSAF will get their upgraded Viper.

When we get (only God knows when) Viper, they would start to retire their F-16.

No matter how close your relationship with US, you can't pass the major ally non-Nato country like Singapore.

I also agree to have 3 squadrons of Viper if needed. It is not F-35 but right now a good quantity of fighters is needed.

 

[¿Por qué?]

Why? They are our biggest threat.

Because we weren't exactly talking about china. We agreed on china, still disagree about regional issue.

Don't do something stupid like Santa Cruz then!

Oh, so you think their so called "allies" never do something similarly or even much much more "stupid" than what we did? How naive.

I would love to have F15EX in our assets, but its simply too rich for our blood right now. Not to mention our AU has more complete set of Russians missiles compare to US one. Let them naturally phase out while we are building our new direction whether its Europe or US.

I still thinking F-16V is the wise choice for us at this moment. By having alot of F-16 we can be relatively secure if we are not getting parts for one reason or the other. IOC & FOC wont be hard to get as our pilots already familiar with it compare to having F15EX. We need this 2 SKA to cover those hawks that suppouse to be retired somewhere around 2025. The objective should be maintaining current number of fighters.

What we can do after is adding force multiplier to the already existing fighters/assets such as having tanker/EWA/Upgrading existing one/Data linking/missiles etc. This should be right while waiting to see if we can have economic rebound after 2021.

I'm not sure about the price, but in terms of capability, are you sure preferring F-16V than Rafale?

First, there are better U.S. made fighter in our region.
Second, even China has all complete collection of F-16 A/V (cmiiw). Pretty sure they don't have Rafale.
Third, in case we need to counter 5th gen fighter, don't you think Rafale gives us better chance?

No matter how close your relationship with US, you can't pass the major ally non-Nato country like Singapore.

Yes!

 

[Nike]

TNI AU F-16D definitely different from more advanced F-16D+ RSAF.

When TNI AU feels proud of e-MLU F-16A/B (basically block 52 equivalent) fleet later, RSAF will get their upgraded Viper.

When we get (only God knows when) Viper, they would start to retire their F-16.

No matter how close your relationship with US, you can't pass the major ally non-Nato country like Singapore.

I also agree to have 3 squadrons of Viper if needed. It is not F-35 but right now a good quantity of fighters is needed.

Singapore is not part of Major Non NATO Ally countries, their standing is the same with us. It just Singapore government is quite stable and more trustworthy for long term defense partner program and cooperation with US. That's why i am always stretched, actually F-15 is not a problem to get at, it just we are not willing to splurge more money to get them and politically many will be disturbed if Indonesia chose US made arms through FMS scheme as their pocket money distribution will be affected severely

 

[umigami]

Because we weren't exactly talking about china. We agreed on china, still disagree about regional issue.



Oh, so you think their so called "allies" never do something similarly or even much much more "stupid" than what we did? How naive.



I'm not sure about the price, but in terms of capability, are you sure preferring F-16V than Rafale?

First, there are better U.S. made fighter in our region.
Second, even China has all complete collection of F-16 A/V (cmiiw). Pretty sure they don't have Rafale.
Third, in case we need to counter 5th gen fighter, don't you think Rafale gives us better chance?



Yes!

Example?

 

[Chestnut]

Nice one

Yes, I heard similar argument before from people who support the procurement of SU-35. To counter 5th gen fighter our best option now is Sukhoi.

How so? The Su-35 shares almost no commonality with our current Flanker fleet. Exactly explain how it is the best option. Also, you have never replied to my question of how having US-built jet aircraft is a "problem" in your view. Please explain that as well.

Can you not thinking about China for just a second? I told you I hate China as much as you do.

And why is that? our most pressing security concern right now is an encroaching PLAN/PLAAF, however judging from your previous post, you are more concerned over the USAF, RAAF, and RSAF even though multiple members have shown you otherwise why we should not be concerned over them. Please explain why we should be concerned over China over our direct neighbours.

Sweden? Really? Dude, have the U.S. or Europe ever punished them with military embargo?

So you're essentially saying that it was okay that the Indonesian government stepped out of line and silenced foreign journalists by murdering them. Because let's be real, that was the tipping point. The Clinton administration didn't really care about our policies in East Timor as they were more concerned about keeping us as a close ally. It was the fact that the TNI murdered foreign journalists that threw them past the point of foreign understanding from an Indonesian point of view.

Thanks to Suharto, huh? It's really convenient that right at the end of his reign, after saying yes to them for decades, they eventually showed us how they really see us by embargoing us

And by the end of the embargo, the US offered to have us be a part of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program if we purchased the F-16 Block 52+, funny how realpolitik works? @Gen3115 and @Nike can tell you more about that.

Because we weren't exactly talking about china. We agreed on china, still disagree about regional issue.

Because several members have shown you that there is no "regional issue". Indonesia is allies of interest and convenience with the US, Australia, and Singapore and has many military cooperations and agreements with its neighbours to show for it.

Oh, so you think their so called "allies" never do something similarly or even much much more "stupid" than what we did? How naive.

Considering what the Indonesian Government did in terms of public relations with their neighbours and allies, the Indonesian government really shot itself in the foot with that one. We can both agree that it is not the ideal representation that we want.

I'm not sure about the price, but in terms of capability, are you sure preferring F-16V than Rafale?

Yes, because commonality and standardization mean a lot in modern warfighting. Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics.

First, there are better U.S. made fighter in our region.
Second, even China has all complete collection of F-16 A/V (cmiiw). Pretty sure they don't have Rafale.
Third, in case we need to counter 5th gen fighter, don't you think Rafale gives us better chance?

Having the F-16V would allow us to have better F-16's than Thailand and give us a similar capability to Singapore. Also, what source do you have that China as you said "has all complete collection of F-16 A/V", I would like to see it.

Also, like or not the AN/APG-83 SABR AESA radar is about a few years newer than the RBE2-AA radar. Exactly in your view how is it that the F-16V 's avionics is inferior to the Rafale even though, practicality in mind, the F-16V is a very recent upgrade program that beats the Rafale upgrades by a few years in age.

No matter how close your relationship with US, you can't pass the major ally non-Nato country like Singapore.

Singapore is not an MNNA, the only reason they have access to quality US stuff is because of money and Malaysia's (specifically Mahathir and his Mahathirisms) belligerence.

 

[Chestnut]

I would love to have F15EX in our assets

Personally, I actually don't doubt that the US would be willing to give us a good deal through Foreign Military Financing. It's less sensitive than the F-35 and considering the Flankers have been a known maintenance burden within the AU, I can see Prabowo being able to finesse his way into getting a good deal. Much like how the MV-22's were offered with partial US financing.

 

[Nike]

more so, the European commissioner lobby is quite strong here, very strong indeed. That's why US made arms (through FMS, DCS or even literally free of charge EDA) is very difficult to get the green light here as the pocket money from those "consultation fees" is nothing to be scoff at, and European arms dealer is well known to be generous for their "consultation fees" and that's killing me literally to open and break their monopoly. You should know why we must taking Belgium M109 and M113 and paid quite a money for the companies and their consultation even though we got offer for US EDA for the exact same thing even with literally better condition.

 

[umigami]

@Jatosint may I post your twit here?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1297536597936574465

You know what saudara serumpun ku tersayang, our TNI now isn't the same with TNI 15 years ago!

 

[Nike]

@Jatosint may I post your twit here?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1297536597936574465

You know what saudara serumpun ku tersayang, our TNI now isn't the same with TNI 15 years ago!

even most of our frontliner troops had their rifle attached with optical sights and wearing adequate body vest and using local made APC. Meanwhile most of Malaysian Nuri Helicopter and Mig 29 already become history, and Indonesia just completing the MLU of F-16 fleets

 

[UMNOPutra]

^^
All of area at Ambalat Block legally should be ours (legally consequence after we won our claim of Sipadan and Ligitan at ICJ)

Please note that we have also advised Indonesia to take this outstanding issue of Ambalat Block to ICJ because we are highly confidence to win this case there ... but Indonesia still decline our "offer" for final and permanent solution through ICJ ....

https://www.icj-cij.org/en/case/102/summaries

 

[nufix]

^^
All of area at Ambalat Block legally should be ours (legally consequence after we won our claim of Sipadan and Ligitan at ICJ)

Please note that we have also advised Indonesia to take this outstanding issue of Ambalat Block to ICJ because we are highly confidence to win this case there ... but Indonesia still decline our "offer" for final and permanent solution through ICJ ....

https://www.icj-cij.org/en/case/102/summaries

Lol yeah offer. What can you do if we dont feel like parlaying?

 

[Gen3115]

If by "latest F-16s" means it's our F-16D (our F-16D is the same as Singapore one's, right?), then I'm okay with this.

but If that means we have to buy 3 squadrons of F-16V first, then I'd have a 2nd thought.



I don't mind bartering. Let them have our military exercise and let us have their arsenal

You need the F-16V's for the learning curve, the TNI-AU has only operated 4th gen jets like Su-27/30 and F-16C/D, going to straight to the F-35 is a huge technological leap that the TNI-AU is not ready for. The F-16V as a 4.5 gen fighter provides a stepping stone for the TNI-AU to operate 5th gens since the F-16V has the AESA radar derivative from the F-35 and the latest EW and avionic suites the TNI-AU can gain experience from. We cannot repeat the 1960's era readiness when the AURI had hundreds of MiG's but only 1/3 were ready because AURI personnel weren't given the time to gain the knowledge to operate supersonic jets since before that they only maintained piston-engine planes.

If you look at current and future F-35 operators, they all are either part of the JSF program or have operated the latest F-16's because they are technologically ready for it from their experience in operating latest F-16's and F/A-18's or other 4.5 gen fighters or are either part of the JSF program. The requirement to have latest F-16's first is not a political requirement, its a technological one. Question yourself first, if the TNI-AU was to get F-35's now or any other 5th gen jet, is the infrastructure to support them ready? have you been to a TNI-AU base and see their facilities? is the TNI-AU ready to maintain planes that require extensive maintenance on their radar coating? is the TNI-AU able to maintain the latest AESA radars? and many other implications with 5th gen jets you can think of.

Again, the TNI-AU as an F-16 operator makes them inevitable to become an F-35 operator since its the natural upgrade path, but that doesn't mean we should get them immediately now considering the TNI-AU still requires the experience. Plus the F-16V isn't to be underestimated and it still probably the best option for the TNI-AU based on the fact the TNI-AU has 30 years experience with F-16's, it has the latest AESA radar derived from the F-35's radar, latest EW and avionics suite, safety suites like GCAS and due to its reasonable operational costs and single engine as well engine commonality with other existing platforms it will give the TNI-AU the best airpower generation capabilities compared to another foreign fighter we're going to introduce.

 

[Nike]

^^
All of area at Ambalat Block legally should be ours (legally consequence after we won our claim of Sipadan and Ligitan at ICJ)

Please note that we have also advised Indonesia to take this outstanding issue of Ambalat Block to ICJ because we are highly confidence to win this case there ... but Indonesia still decline our "offer" for final and permanent solution through ICJ ....

https://www.icj-cij.org/en/case/102/summaries

how about Malaysia attack Indonesia first, we should take such offer much generously

 

[¿Por qué?]

Example?

So you're essentially saying that it was okay that the Indonesian government stepped out of line and silenced foreign journalists by murdering them. Because let's be real, that was the tipping point. The Clinton administration didn't really care about our policies in East Timor as they were more concerned about keeping us as a close ally. It was the fact that the TNI murdered foreign journalists that threw them past the point of foreign understanding from an Indonesian point of view.

Considering what the Indonesian Government did in terms of public relations with their neighbours and allies, the Indonesian government really shot itself in the foot with that one. We can both agree that it is not the ideal representation that we want.

So you never heard any news, for God knows how many decades, regarding the Israeli forces killing journalist, or civilian, or........ children?

Any embargo?

We did the mistake here, and accepted the punishment. How come they did a lot worse and nothing happened?

Or maybe you are trying to say that killing civilians are immoral here, but it's completely okay elsewhere as long as it's done by their so called close "allies"?

Is this the norm to be "aligned with them"? If so then I'm not fond of it to say the least.

And why is that? our most pressing security concern right now is an encroaching PLAN/PLAAF, however judging from your previous post, you are more concerned over the USAF, RAAF, and RSAF even though multiple members have shown you otherwise why we should not be concerned over them. Please explain why we should be concerned over China over our direct neighbours.

Because several members have shown you that there is no "regional issue". Indonesia is allies of interest and convenience with the US, Australia, and Singapore and has many military cooperations and agreements with its neighbours to show for it.

I told you already, the most ideal solution for china problem is "to blow them to pieces and wiped them off the world map".

Do you really think it'll be us who do it?

Do you think it'll be our F-16 who do it? Or perhaps our Sukhoi?

Really?

Dude, the most that we can contribute is exactly what you guys were talking about several pages above, providing area for refueling for the big guns.

Our air forces hold not so much relevance with china problem.

It's strange that you're optimistic as hell for us to get all the U.S. support but totally pessimistic in the U.S. chance to destroy China.

I'm the opposite. I believe 100% that even with just their Pacific fleet, they can beat china. Never mind with full QUAD support plus UK.

And after they got rid of china problem, what do we have left? Obviously our usual business, means our regional challenge.

Not difficult to grasp.

How so? The Su-35 shares almost no commonality with our current Flanker fleet. Exactly explain how it is the best option. Also, you have never replied to my question of how having US-built jet aircraft is a "problem" in your view. Please explain that as well.

Yes, because commonality and standardization mean a lot in modern warfighting. Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics

Dude, the commonality is not the only thing that we should consider. If so then why the heck we wait for so many years, analyzing so many different aircrafts, and then came up with SU-35, and then after CAATSA we (probably) turn our attention to Rafale.

So you're saying our government is full of amateurs?

We can build the new infrastructure, albeit with much more investment. We should not be allergic to that.

And by the end of the embargo, the US offered to have us be a part of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program if we purchased the F-16 Block 52+, funny how realpolitik works? @Gen3115 and @Nike can tell you more about that.

Again, if that means we have to buy 3 squadrons of F-16V first before get our hands on F-35 then it's a s**t offer.

Once we get our hand on F-35, china problem would probably have been resolved, and it'll be Martians who claim not just our EEZ in Natuna, but our fricking patio as well. And I'll probably be the one who say, "I told you to get that S-500!".

Having the F-16V would allow us to have better F-16's than Thailand and give us a similar capability to Singapore. Also, what source do you have that China as you said "has all complete collection of F-16 A/V", I would like to see it.

Also, like or not the AN/APG-83 SABR AESA radar is about a few years newer than the RBE2-AA radar. Exactly in your view how is it that the F-16V 's avionics is inferior to the Rafale even though, practicality in mind, the F-16V is a very recent upgrade program that beats the Rafale upgrades by a few years in age.

I said "better U.S. made fighter", so I was clearly talking about the upcoming F-35.

I said cmiiw because I was sure china got a copy of F-16, build their own (is it J-10 or J-16?) and then develop it further, but I was not sure how it fares against the original F-16. The point remains, F-16 is not something new for them. Different than Rafale.

Unless they also got a copy of Rafale and already built their version, then I stand corrected.

(note : maybe I'm not really IT/web savvy, but this multi-quote jobs is a pain in the ***)