Indonesia Defence Forum

[san.geuk]

MoD potentialy breaking the constitution, if he insist buy secondhand tyhoon, that's what some member of komisi 1 said, because the contitution said the deal should be include trade-return, offset and local content at least 85%

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...rabowo-langgar-uu-jika-beli-jet-typhoon-bekas

this also makes me wonder how many percentage offset and local content in our kfx, if sokor fail to give indonesia access for the local component, offset or local assembly below the constitution requirment, if we continue this will be potentially breaking our constitution

 

[umigami]

DPR RI kagak mau EF sekenan..
Mau nya rafale buka bungkus..
Sales rafale lumayan strong jg di senayan..

Was this actually his strategy?
"Mau Rafale, ya anggarannya ditambah dong...?! wkwkwkw.... "

 

[Nike]

 

[Gen3115]

If the DPR is still very concerned about embargo and sanctions and/or just want something different from the established US-made jet fighters other than the Su-35 then the Rafale is the best and only other choice out there. During the 1999 East Timor embargo, France only enforced their arms embargo for less than a year compared to the US and UK who enforced their embargo until 2005. Also during the Aceh insurgency it was mostly French and Soviet-era equipment like the VAB and AMX and BTR's that were used at the time and the French didn't care that much. I don't want to sound like a sudden Francophile here, but we all know from the forums that there is a perception that US arms are usually restricted and Russian arms are cheap but hard to maintain and also a pain in the *** when it comes to logistics, but we rarely hear such problems with the French and their equipment also the French are relatively generous when it comes to offsets and ToT (example: H225M assembly, Anoa, Komodo, etc.). Plus France is just known to be relaxed regarding these issues, you can see how back then they even sold Mistral's to the Russians. The other advantage is basically with the Rafale you're getting a NATO western fighter that can datalink with other western systems with Link 16 for example without the same worries of sanctions and embargo when shit happens.

The down side with getting Rafales would be 1. Its going to be costly to train new pilots with a very unfamiliar platform 2. Rafale is only able to bring French/EU armaments unlike the Typhoon which is more flexible 3. You'd have to develop all the necessary Dassault infrastructure (all other Rafale operators are former/current Mirage 2000 operators).

 

[Nike]

Looks like they now carry standard three Magz on their carrier plate vest when in deployment. Tremendous improvement indeed

Should improve the cooperation between PINDAD and Theon so they open production line here and truly manufacturing their products here

 

[Gundala]

There's few interesting comments from the parliament members in the Tempo newspapers regarding potential sales of Austria's Typhoon, especially from Lord TBH and Dave Laksono.

Well, if you look at the comments from the parliament you have to know which party it came from. So far (from open source) members from Nasdem and PDIP have made statement disagreeing with this project. Golkar seems to be ok with it. This is where/how they political system works sometime, someone is releasing information to media then the politicians and other "elemen" commenting it. By doing this we would know who rejected/agree with the program, then the lobby start to smooth things out. I call this "test the water" and see which or what fish come out

how long to take EF from signed to ready combat? i don't know but surely be faster than new aircraft. the future of this EF and Su-27 are same, use them up until end of their life time, which is maybe about 2040-ish while Su-27 up about 2030-ish. let's be fair in this case, with all the rapid advancing technology, we surely need f-35 to fill this role but we not ready yet.
so i think the most viable option are force this Su-27 up to his retirement and replace it with F-35, and because we only use second hand EF, they can be retired relatively fast, then do the same, replace it with F-35. yeah i know this is just opinion, but come on

New member? Welcome man. I said that in comparison of getting another fighter from the shelf, the timeline is not that far comparing to EF (upgraded to tranche 2) specially if we decided to get Viper. I know its 2 different fighters but if we look for more numbers then Viper should be fine. And getting the Viper latest block will be a technology leap as it will be the first one with AESA etc. It also easier to adapt by pilot/technician not to mention the infrastructure. Having used EF Tranche 1 is also not an adavancement avionic wise. This offcourse will be different if we have plan to have more EF in a future, then its a good start to have 15 of them now regardless if we going to upgrade immediatly or not.

Now the question is are we going to have some more EF in the future? I said its a possibility. Then what you said will be right as we let the sukhoi phased out and replace by this EF. But you might be wrong about phasing out EF for F35. Europe while having F35, they still upgrading the EF so it can go side by side while filling each other gap and so must we if we decided to take the EF path. But this will most likely take KFX out of the equation. The hardest part is to get complete missile collection like what our sukhoi family have. We might have to get it from Europe/MBDA and its expensive, forget about getting advance missile from US as it would be hard.

Another interesting part if we take EF path is it might take F16Viper out of the equation as well. We might be pursuing F35 instead. So like most of european countries our future backbone would be EF and F35. Isnt that sweet? We still defirsify our arsenal by having Europe and US source and the current Europe geopolitic indicate that they want reduce their dependency to US military and trying to support their own made arsenal, just like how French trying to get rid of US components from their military arsenal so they can sell it more freely.

So if this the case whats the not so distant future of our fighter acquisition gonna look like? Looking at the leftover budget and the future alocation I think most likely we are going to get 15 EF and maybe 4 F35. Just a thought and wild prediction

 

[Nike]

Infantryman during Aceh conflict 2003

 

[Gen3115]

Well, if you look at the comments from the parliament you have to know which party it came from. So far (from open source) members from Nasdem and PDIP have made statement disagreeing with this project. Golkar seems to be ok with it. This is where/how they political system works sometime, someone is releasing information to media then the politicians and other "elemen" commenting it. By doing this we would know who rejected/agree with the program, then the lobby start to smooth things out. I call this "test the water" and see which or what fish come out


New member? Welcome man. I said that in comparison of getting another fighter from the shelf, the timeline is not that far comparing to EF (upgraded to tranche 2) specially if we decided to get Viper. I know its 2 different fighters but if we look for more numbers the Viper should be fine. And getting the Viper latest block will be a technology leap as it will be the first one with AESA etc. It also easier to adapt by pilot/technician not to mention the infrastructure as we already have numbers of older one. So having used EF Tranche 1 is not an adavancement in avionic wise (compare to our Sukhoi/F16 block 52id) but rather just numbers/kinetic. This offcourse will be different if we have plan to have more EF in a future, then its a good start to have 15 of them now regardless if we going to upgrade immediatly or not.

Now the question is are we going to have some more EF in the future? I said its a possibility. Then what you said will be right as we let the sukhoi phased out and replace by this EF. But you might be wrong about phasing out EF for F35. Europe while having F35, they still upgrading the EF so it can go side by side while filling each other gap and so must we if we decided to take the EF path. But this will most likely take KFX out of the equation. The hardest part is to get complete missile collection like what our sukhoi family have. We might have to get it from Europe/MBDA and its expensive, forget about getting advance missile from US as it would be hard.

Another interesting part if we take EF path is it might take F16Viper out of the equation as well. We might be pursuing F35 instead. So like most of european countries our future backbone would be EF and F35. Isnt that sweet? We still defirsify our arsenal by having Europe and US source and the current Europe geopolitic indicate that they want reduce their independency to US military and trying to support their own made arsenal, just like how French trying to get rid of US components from their military arsenal so they can sell it more freely.

So if this the case whats the not so distant future of our fighter acquisition gonna look like? Looking at the leftover budget and the future alocation I think most likely we are going to get 15 EF and maybe 4 F35. Just a thought and wild prediction

I see the F-35 more as a gradual replacement for our F-16 fleet since the F-35 was meant to replace the F-16 anyway. I have a strong feeling they will gradually replace F-16 with F-35's starting with the oldest F-16AM/BM MLU jets and we're going to see F-35's alongside newer F-16's + F-5 replacement fighter for a while and for the 4 F-35 are you referring to this? https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/...wo-mau-beli-4-jet-tempur-di-2021-sukhoi-su-35 I don't think we're going to get F-35's soon even though its inevitable to be honest, but is it possible that we might pull off something like Singapore does where they buy the first 4 aircrafts first before doing repeated orders?

 

[Indos]

According to our Korean friend, dr knowhow, that is FASS which is the laser guided assembly demonstrator. FASS is the name of the technique. FASS (Fuselage Automated Splice System)

A system that automatically puts together the separately assembled front and back bodies,
with the center fuselage in the middle, by providing the positioner with FWD, CRT, and AFT through LGV

Latest Video from KAI

KFX/IFX look like will be manufactured with advanced technic

 

[joesatriyono]

Well, if you look at the comments from the parliament you have to know which party it came from. So far (from open source) members from Nasdem and PDIP have made statement disagreeing with this project. Golkar seems to be ok with it. This is where/how they political system works sometime, someone is releasing information to media then the politicians and other "elemen" commenting it. By doing this we would know who rejected/agree with the program, then the lobby start to smooth things out. I call this "test the water" and see which or what fish come out


New member? Welcome man. I said that in comparison of getting another fighter from the shelf, the timeline is not that far comparing to EF (upgraded to tranche 2) specially if we decided to get Viper. I know its 2 different fighters but if we look for more numbers then Viper should be fine. And getting the Viper latest block will be a technology leap as it will be the first one with AESA etc. It also easier to adapt by pilot/technician not to mention the infrastructure. Having used EF Tranche 1 is also not an adavancement avionic wise. This offcourse will be different if we have plan to have more EF in a future, then its a good start to have 15 of them now regardless if we going to upgrade immediatly or not.

Now the question is are we going to have some more EF in the future? I said its a possibility. Then what you said will be right as we let the sukhoi phased out and replace by this EF. But you might be wrong about phasing out EF for F35. Europe while having F35, they still upgrading the EF so it can go side by side while filling each other gap and so must we if we decided to take the EF path. But this will most likely take KFX out of the equation. The hardest part is to get complete missile collection like what our sukhoi family have. We might have to get it from Europe/MBDA and its expensive, forget about getting advance missile from US as it would be hard.

Another interesting part if we take EF path is it might take F16Viper out of the equation as well. We might be pursuing F35 instead. So like most of european countries our future backbone would be EF and F35. Isnt that sweet? We still defirsify our arsenal by having Europe and US source and the current Europe geopolitic indicate that they want reduce their dependency to US military and trying to support their own made arsenal, just like how French trying to get rid of US components from their military arsenal so they can sell it more freely.

So if this the case whats the not so distant future of our fighter acquisition gonna look like? Looking at the leftover budget and the future alocation I think most likely we are going to get 15 EF and maybe 4 F35. Just a thought and wild prediction

EF that can go with F-35? you mean project centurion and odin? i never think that we will become EF permanent user. i think, considering each sqn role (if we don't made another dedicated sqn or reactivated old one) the path will look like this

for multirole craft
hawk and F-16 = F-16v = IFX Block 3

for air superiority
Su-27 and EF = F-35

why IFX you may ask, because they designed to able to carry european stuff
but hey, nice thought anyway

 

[Nike]

According to our Korean friend, dr knowhow, that is FASS which is the laser guided assembly demonstrator. FASS is the name of the technique. FASS (Fuselage Automated Splice System)

A system that automatically puts together the separately assembled front and back bodies,
with the center fuselage in the middle, by providing the positioner with FWD, CRT, and AFT through LGV

Latest Video from KAI

KFX/IFX look like will be manufactured with advanced technic

All i can see within this explanation video and pic it is Korean project and pride with their own advance technology and effort, there is no mention of Indonesia word even no mention of IFX word at all. Period

 

[Indos]

All i can see within this explanation video and pic it is Korean project and pride with their own advance technology and effort, there is no mention of Indonesia word even no mention of IFX word at all. Period

Understandable after Jokowi never paid Indonesia financial contribution for the last several years.....

This is what happen in September 2019. CDR meeting. After the design has been completed.

http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/bbs/view.html?b_bbs_id=10040&pn=1&num=93826#none

 

[Gundala]

I see the F-35 more as a gradual replacement for our F-16 fleet since the F-35 was meant to replace the F-16 anyway. I have a strong feeling they will gradually replace F-16 with F-35's starting with the oldest F-16AM/BM MLU jets and we're going to see F-35's alongside newer F-16's + F-5 replacement fighter for a while and for the 4 F-35 are you referring to this? https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/...wo-mau-beli-4-jet-tempur-di-2021-sukhoi-su-35 I don't think we're going to get F-35's soon even though its inevitable to be honest, but is it possible that we might pull off something like Singapore does where they buy the first 4 aircrafts first before doing repeated orders?

Nothing is certain, but Im pretty sure SU35 is out of the equation already. As for the cnbcindonesia news; thats one of the open source I think related to the F35. Again its a political game locally and internationally, but if we compare to the EF news this one dont mention what type of fighter/airplane. So perhaps this news was released for comfirmation/support only for the parties related in the dealing room and more to selected international community. But looking from open source news few weeks ago there were official statement from Indonesia of their intention to acquire F35 right? So I assume that number is a match.
https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ukhoi-indonesia-buka-peluang-beli-jet-f-35-as

Is it possible we pull it off like Singapore? Why not? The main concern about getting advance military assets from international stand point is it might disrupt region balance of power or being considered as a potential threat to neighboring country or region. Remember the Kilo submarine saga back then? Its one of the example of how region/neighbor react if we make an open and big move/plan.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/japan-concerned-at-new-subs-for-indonesia-20070906-gdr1jj.html

Getting 4 F35 + 15 used EF wont be much of a concern. Now put yourself in International point of view and read this imaginary news headline "Indonesia get her hands on 15 Eurofighter typhoon and 32 F-16 Viper". Now tell me that headline doesnt concern you, that 15+32 numbers surely something right?

 

[san.geuk]

Sokor just need Indonesia for reduction cost, that's my gripe

Nothing is certain, but Im pretty sure SU35 is out of the equation already. As for the cnbcindonesia news; thats one of the open source I think related to the F35. Again its a political game locally and internationally, but if we compare to the EF news this one dont mention what type of fighter/airplane. So perhaps this news was released for comfirmation/support only for the parties related in the dealing room and more to selected international community. But looking from open source news few weeks ago there were official statement from Indonesia of their intention to acquire F35 right? So I assume that number is a match.
https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ukhoi-indonesia-buka-peluang-beli-jet-f-35-as

Is it possible we pull it off like Singapore? Why not? The main concern about getting advance military assets from international stand point is it might disrupt region balance of power or being considered as a potential threat to neighboring country or region. Remember the Kilo submarine saga back then? Its one of the example of how region/neighbor react if we make an open and big move/plan.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/japan-concerned-at-new-subs-for-indonesia-20070906-gdr1jj.html

Getting 4 F35 + 15 used EF wont be much of a concern. Now put yourself in International point of view and read this imaginary news headline "Indonesia get her hands on 15 Eurofighter typhoon and 32 F-16 Viper". Now tell me that headline doesnt concern you, that 15+32 numbers surely something right?

You mean keseimbangan kawasan?
That kind of strategy don't relevant anymore when some country want to bully their neighbouring contry including Indonesia

 

[UMNOPutra]

All i can see within this explanation video and pic it is Korean project and pride with their own advance technology and effort, there is no mention of Indonesia word even no mention of IFX word at all. Period

Wonder.. You are too late to know it ...Korea can complete its KFX project with or without your participation ...