Indonesia Defence Forum

[Nike]

Understandable after Jokowi never paid Indonesia financial contribution for the last several years.....

This is what happen in September 2019. CDR meeting. After the design has been completed.

http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/bbs/view.html?b_bbs_id=10040&pn=1&num=93826#none

Whatever, all i can see is Indonesia must commit toward KFX projects but at the same time Indonesia must acquire more fighter, let it by bought second hand units or brand new as Indonesia fighter assets is very very lacking and low in number, and at this rate our Flanker will soon reach their own end of life time cycle (the 2003 and 2006 batch will reach it first circa 2027-2033 as now already 2020) and our Hawk already falling from sky. It is very stupid just to wait for KFX program as even the South Korean the initiator is buying more fighter like F15, F 35, F/A 50 and so on.

 

[Gundala]

You mean keseimbangan kawasan?
That kind of strategy don't relevant anymore when some country want to bully their neighbouring contry including Indonesia

I think you dont get what Im trying to say, and balance of power is not a strategy.

 

[HellFireIndo]

I still can't understand why would we dump this huge opportunity and downplayed our part in it. Just see you people, when any other ASEAN country somehow go forward with any jet project in the future you'll be screaming "wHy We CaN't bE LiKe thAt CoUnTry wHo IS oF HiGh TecH", you all be sorrying all yo *** for not supporting this project. Geez, time when even DPR make more sense.

 

[Whizzack]

MoD potentialy breaking the constitution, if he insist buy secondhand tyhoon, that's what some member of komisi 1 said, because the contitution said the deal should be include trade-return, offset and local content at least 85%

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...rabowo-langgar-uu-jika-beli-jet-typhoon-bekas

this also makes me wonder how many percentage offset and local content in our kfx, if sokor fail to give indonesia access for the local component, offset or local assembly below the constitution requirment, if we continue this will be potentially breaking our constitution

Correction... UU is not Constitution, it's Law or Legislation... Constitution is UUD... And I don't really think we'll need to worry about that too much, we have had no problems purchasing second hand F16s, Bung Tomo Corvettes, and Leopard2s / Marders as long as the price is right...

The way I see how this deal can probably be done and be acceptable by all parties is as follows :

1. Buy the Typhoons as is from the Austrian gov at very "friendly" pricing... hopefully at around USD 200M - 300M max for the whole bunch (some news articles already mentioned that the airframe cost will be very cheap, so it might be possible).. Attempt to get counter-trade agreement for some of the value.. This would be a plus point in parliament and could satisfy at least some of the opposition..

2. Negotiate a separate contract with Airbus/EADS for the overhaul and upgrade of this T1 Typhoons to something approaching T2 or T3 levels if possible, becoming... let's say T3ID (similar to how we call our upgraded F16 block 25, block 52ID)... Ideally the cost should be capped at about USD 1B max, hopefully less.. (The cost to overhaul/upgrade the 24 AMARG F16s were USD 750M, so USD 1B for 15 Typhoons should be reasonable enough)... This should satisfy the critics that are worried we are only getting the limited capability T1 model.

3. Airbus/EADS will then subcontract most of the overhaul/upgrade work to PTDI (under supervision of course)... The first 3 - 5 units can be done at Airbus facilities, with PTDI sending engineers to observe and train. This early units will serve as a template and also provide training to PTDI engineers and techs... Work on the rest will be done in PTDI facilities with engineers that had been trained earlier... This should satisfy the requirement for offsets, local workshare, TOT, etc, and also provide good photo ops for Prabowo or members of the parliament... Wouldn't it be nice to have their photos taken with PTDI engineers working on the Typhoons inside PTDI facilities in the background..

4. The earlier 3 - 5 units already upgraded in Airbus facilities can then be used operationally by the TNI AU to train and familiarize themselves with this new jet, while awaiting for the rest to be completed by PTDI.. Additional facilities should probably be prepared as well during this time.. let's add some USD 200M for facilities..

5. Total cost so far should now be about USD 1,5B.. If this purchase is really meant to replace the Su-35 purchase then the above cost should still be acceptable as the SU-35 cost is about USD 1,2B for 11 units.. So this shouldn't "break the bank" so to speak.. Also PTDI and Airbus already has a good working relationship and Airbus is surely keen to expand their partnership with PTDI and TNI AU...

Of course all the above points are currently pure speculation, there are still too many unknowns... But if a deal is to be made then then something like the above scenario is probably likely... A lot of parties will need to be satisfied first... So is USD 1,5B for 15 upgraded Typhoons worthy..? how would it compare to USD 750M for 24 upgraded F16s..? or how would it compare to USD 1,2B for 11 Su-35s...?

 

[Nike]

I still can't understand why would we dump this huge opportunity and downplayed our part in it. Just see you people, when any other ASEAN country somehow go forward with any jet project in the future you'll be screaming "wHy We CaN't bE LiKe thAt CoUnTry wHo IS oF HiGh TecH", you all be sorrying all yo *** for not supporting this project. Geez, time when even DPR make more sense.

Why don't you commited in the program but at the same time bought anything you need. Or do you want to see more plane to fall again caused by over usage?

 

[NEKONEKO]

Aku sih KFX-IFX iyes.

Are MoD gonna watch how Egypt SU35 purchase will unfold first before deciding our SU35 purchase? (Bakal berlanjut sampai kapan drama ini)

 

[gondes]

Well, if you look at the comments from the parliament you have to know which party it came from. So far (from open source) members from Nasdem and PDIP have made statement disagreeing with this project. Golkar seems to be ok with it. This is where/how they political system works sometime, someone is releasing information to media then the politicians and other "elemen" commenting it. By doing this we would know who rejected/agree with the program, then the lobby start to smooth things out. I call this "test the water" and see which or what fish come out


New member? Welcome man. I said that in comparison of getting another fighter from the shelf, the timeline is not that far comparing to EF (upgraded to tranche 2) specially if we decided to get Viper. I know its 2 different fighters but if we look for more numbers then Viper should be fine. And getting the Viper latest block will be a technology leap as it will be the first one with AESA etc. It also easier to adapt by pilot/technician not to mention the infrastructure. Having used EF Tranche 1 is also not an adavancement avionic wise. This offcourse will be different if we have plan to have more EF in a future, then its a good start to have 15 of them now regardless if we going to upgrade immediatly or not.

Now the question is are we going to have some more EF in the future? I said its a possibility. Then what you said will be right as we let the sukhoi phased out and replace by this EF. But you might be wrong about phasing out EF for F35. Europe while having F35, they still upgrading the EF so it can go side by side while filling each other gap and so must we if we decided to take the EF path. But this will most likely take KFX out of the equation. The hardest part is to get complete missile collection like what our sukhoi family have. We might have to get it from Europe/MBDA and its expensive, forget about getting advance missile from US as it would be hard.

Another interesting part if we take EF path is it might take F16Viper out of the equation as well. We might be pursuing F35 instead. So like most of european countries our future backbone would be EF and F35. Isnt that sweet? We still defirsify our arsenal by having Europe and US source and the current Europe geopolitic indicate that they want reduce their dependency to US military and trying to support their own made arsenal, just like how French trying to get rid of US components from their military arsenal so they can sell it more freely.

So if this the case whats the not so distant future of our fighter acquisition gonna look like? Looking at the leftover budget and the future alocation I think most likely we are going to get 15 EF and maybe 4 F35. Just a thought and wild prediction

Agree... this is only a distraction from what is real.. I'm pretty sure Prabowo and Team clearly know what legal, financial and political risks of buying EF... He is an experienced (former) General for God sake... This is also functioning to distract potential opponents eyeing what would Indonesia do to face regional situation..

Just like Sun Tzu / Bin tactics, do something that look silly or unimportant or unpredictable in battle field in order to distract, confuse, surprise and make enemies downgrade their level of awareness... and once they did, we can easily set them into a trap...

 

[Nike]

Love this guy, Hotman Paris Hutapea

 

[UMNOPutra]

Agree... this is only a distraction from what is real.. I'm pretty sure Prabowo and Team clearly know what legal, financial and political risks of buying EF... He is an experienced (former) General for God sake... This is also functioning to distract potential opponents eyeing what would Indonesia do to face regional situation..

Just like Sun Tzu / Bin tactics, do something that look silly or unimportant or unpredictable in battle field in order to distract, confuse, surprise and make enemies downgrade their level of awareness... and once they did, we can easily set them into a trap...

Prabowois a smart general ad also a smart politician ...He knows how to play a role to attract more attention from public on his "capabilities" as a "potential candidate" for President in 2024 and also to improve electabilities his party ... For him .... all of his maneuvers as MoD is a part of his "political scenario" that "Semua yang ia lakukan itu hanyalah Sandiwara... Dimana Dia sendiri adalah Dalangnya" .. So ... Don't take seious if you get nothing from him ...

 

[Indos]

Prabowois a smart general ad also a smart politician ...He knows how to play a role to attract more attention from public on his "capabilities" as a "potential candidate" for President in 2024 and also to improve electabilities his party ... For him .... all of his maneuvers as MoD is a part of his "political scenario" that "Semua yang ia lakukan itu hanyalah Sandiwara... Dimana Dia sendiri adalah Dalangnya" .. So ... Don't take seious if you get nothing from him ...

As politician and next potential Presidential candidate he surely like to test the water and it will make sure he can do the acquisition that has public support, thus will affect his next candidacy positively.

 

[Raduga]

As politician and next potential Presidential candidate he surely like to test the water and it will make sure he can do the acquisition that has public support, thus will affect his next candidacy positively.

then rafale or US jet it is .

 

[mandala]

The Indonesian Ministry Of Defense acknowledges that the Austrian Typhoons purchase plan had gone through evaluation.

Kemhan soal Eurofighter Typhoon: Alutsista Bekas Sudah Dikaji

CNN Indonesia
Jumat, 24/07/2020 03:22

Kementerian Pertahanan menanggapi rencana pembelian jet tempur bekas Austria, Eurofighter Typhoon. (CNN Indonesia/Prima Gumilang)

Jakarta, CNN Indonesia --
Kepala Biro Humas Kementerian Pertahanan Djoko Purwanto menyatakan berbagai alat utama sistem persenjataan (alutsista) yang menjadi incaran Kemhan telah melalui kajian dan proses penyeleksian. Hal ini juga menjawab kekhawatiran berbagai pihak terkait rencana pembelian jet tempur bekas milik Austria, Eurofighter Thypoon.

Djoko memastikan rencana pembelian alutsista, baik yang bekas maupun baru, tak akan lolos begitu saja. Semuanya telah dikaji dan diseleksi sebelum pemerintah mengajukan kerja sama pembelian.

"Yang bekas itu kan semua sudah ada kajiannya," kata Djoko di Gedung Kementerian Pertahanan, Jalan Medan Merdeka Barat, Jakarta Pusat, Kamis (23/7).

Kajian Alutsista ini, kata Djoko, dilakukan oleh matra TNI yang nantinya akan menggunakan peralatan tersebut. Misalnya, untuk alat tempur atau alutsista yang biasa digunakan di darat, maka proses pengkajian dilakukan oleh TNI Angkatan Darat.

Pun begitu untuk alutsista yang digunakan di laut dan udara, maka akan dikaji langsung oleh Angkatan Laut dan Angkatan Udara.

"Yang berhak mengkaji alutsista adalah TNI. Jadi, semua ada kajiannya. Sama kayak kita milih pasangan," kata dia.

Lagi pula dari semua hal itu yang terpenting adalah memenuhi tujuan dan keinginan untuk memperkuat pertahanan. Memang, kata Djoko, tak bisa dipungkiri dari setiap alutsista baik yang bekas maupun yang baru tentu akan ada baik dan buruknya.

"Pasti ada plus minusnya. Kemhan juga mengkaji, TNI juga punya kajiannya karena mereka user-nya," kata dia.

"Biarkan saja ini berjalan dulu, kita lihat dulu, ke depannya mudah-mudahan akan ada yang bagus," kata dia.

Read more: https://m.cnnindonesia.com/nasional...ofighter-typhoon-alutsista-bekas-sudah-dikaji

 

[Indos]

What Prabowo should do to preserve his candidacy is to pay KFX/IFX program as this program is popular among Indonesian general public and parliament.

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CNN Indonesia | Thursday, 23/07/2020

Parliament Asks Prabowo to Pay Off South Korean KFX Than Austrian Typhoon

Jakarta, CNN Indonesia -

Member of DPR NasDem Party Faction Muhammad Farhan joined the inauguration of the House of Representatives (DPR) for the 2019-2024 period in the Plenary Meeting Room, Parliament Complex, Senayan, Jakarta, Tuesday, October 1, 2019. DPR Commission I Member Muhammad Farhan Photo: CNN Indonesia / Adhi Wicaksono

House of Representatives Commission I member Muhammad Farhan suggested Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto pay off the KFX / IFX fighter cooperation project with South Korea instead of buying 15 used Eurofighter Typhoon fighter planes from Austria.

Farhan said the cooperation project with South Korea was indeed expensive. But it will have a positive impact on the development of Indonesia's defense industry in the long run.

"Although it is bitter that we must pay almost US $ 2 billion, but we can get the technology, the opportunity to develop its people," Farhan said when contacted by CNNIndonesia.com, Thursday (7/23).

See also: Commission I Call Prabowo Violated the Law If You Buy a Used Jet Typhoon

Quoted from Antara, since 2009 Indonesia and South Korea are exploring the development of KFX / IFX. The total investment value agreed by the two countries reached US $ 8 billion or Rp121.35 trillion.

The financing scheme is 60 percent borne by the South Korean State Budget, 20 percent by KAI companies from South Korea, and the remaining 20 percent from the Indonesian State Budget.

The development of KFX / IFX will be divided into three stages, namely the development of technology or concepts, the development of manufacturing engineering or prototypes, then the mass production process. The target, the first prototype can be completed in 2021.

Indonesia and South Korea are targeting the production of 168 KFX / IFX aircraft. Later 120 units will be owned by South Korea, while 48 other units will be owned by Indonesia.
See also: Prabowo's Plan to Buy 15 Austrian Typhoon Triggers Protests

Farhan said that Indonesia had paid US $ 250 million to start the project. He advised Prabowo to focus the budget on the project rather than buying used Austrian aircraft.

"Don't let it break (the contract). This is a difficult decision whose benefits we can feel in the next 5-10 years and can be the basis for us to map the road map towards the minimum essential force," he said.

Previously, Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto reportedly would buy up 15 used Eurofighter Typhoon fighter planes from Australia. It was known from the letter numbered 60 / M / VII / 2020 and dated July 10, 2020 was given the subject of 'Proposal About Eurofughter Typhoon Aircraft'.

"In order to modernize the Indonesian Air Force (Indonesian Air Force), I want to hold formal negotiations with you to buy 15 Eurofighter for the Republic of Indonesia," Prabowo said as stated in the English-language letter quoted Wednesday (7/22).
(dhf / gil)

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...o-lunasi-kfx-korsel-ketimbang-typhoon-austria

 

[Nike]

What Prabowo should do to preserve his candidacy is to pay KFX/IFX program as this program is popular among Indonesian general public and parliament.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CNN Indonesia | Thursday, 23/07/2020

Parliament Asks Prabowo to Pay Off South Korean KFX Than Austrian Typhoon

Jakarta, CNN Indonesia -

Member of DPR NasDem Party Faction Muhammad Farhan joined the inauguration of the House of Representatives (DPR) for the 2019-2024 period in the Plenary Meeting Room, Parliament Complex, Senayan, Jakarta, Tuesday, October 1, 2019. DPR Commission I Member Muhammad Farhan Photo: CNN Indonesia / Adhi Wicaksono

House of Representatives Commission I member Muhammad Farhan suggested Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto pay off the KFX / IFX fighter cooperation project with South Korea instead of buying 15 used Eurofighter Typhoon fighter planes from Austria.

Farhan said the cooperation project with South Korea was indeed expensive. But it will have a positive impact on the development of Indonesia's defense industry in the long run.

"Although it is bitter that we must pay almost US $ 2 billion, but we can get the technology, the opportunity to develop its people," Farhan said when contacted by CNNIndonesia.com, Thursday (7/23).

See also: Commission I Call Prabowo Violated the Law If You Buy a Used Jet Typhoon

Quoted from Antara, since 2009 Indonesia and South Korea are exploring the development of KFX / IFX. The total investment value agreed by the two countries reached US $ 8 billion or Rp121.35 trillion.

The financing scheme is 60 percent borne by the South Korean State Budget, 20 percent by KAI companies from South Korea, and the remaining 20 percent from the Indonesian State Budget.

The development of KFX / IFX will be divided into three stages, namely the development of technology or concepts, the development of manufacturing engineering or prototypes, then the mass production process. The target, the first prototype can be completed in 2021.

Indonesia and South Korea are targeting the production of 168 KFX / IFX aircraft. Later 120 units will be owned by South Korea, while 48 other units will be owned by Indonesia.
See also: Prabowo's Plan to Buy 15 Austrian Typhoon Triggers Protests

Farhan said that Indonesia had paid US $ 250 million to start the project. He advised Prabowo to focus the budget on the project rather than buying used Austrian aircraft.

"Don't let it break (the contract). This is a difficult decision whose benefits we can feel in the next 5-10 years and can be the basis for us to map the road map towards the minimum essential force," he said.

Previously, Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto reportedly would buy up 15 used Eurofighter Typhoon fighter planes from Australia. It was known from the letter numbered 60 / M / VII / 2020 and dated July 10, 2020 was given the subject of 'Proposal About Eurofughter Typhoon Aircraft'.

"In order to modernize the Indonesian Air Force (Indonesian Air Force), I want to hold formal negotiations with you to buy 15 Eurofighter for the Republic of Indonesia," Prabowo said as stated in the English-language letter quoted Wednesday (7/22).
(dhf / gil)

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...o-lunasi-kfx-korsel-ketimbang-typhoon-austria

Lol

What public want is their Belly is filled , their children can continue their studies into higher education, they not need to worry to catch virus when doing something outside of their homes , peace when they are doing ibadat,health insurance when they got sickness, peace at homes and outside without worry being robed at the street and works to earn money. Nothing else matters, as long as government can delivered all to them there is no public lashed from population even when Prabowo bought 200 EF typhoon. Public actually don't give a damn about KFX or whatsoever.

 

[HellFireIndo]

Public don't care about KFX with the same reason of why they didn't even know or care that there's things called "Leopard tank", "MQ reaper drone", "Diesel Submarine", "BVR missile", "ICBM", "PDW", "MRAP" etc etc when you ask them if they want these trillions of rupiahs worth of weapons should be converted into free food, ofc they will say "yes please". Why? because they are PLEBS, literally awam people who knows not of this "world", they will always be less informed of these shit, you might as well melt down the tanks, scraps the jets, and kilo-ing the submarines if everything should be "citizens only care about food so we dont need to care about strategic weaponry", there's state and there's citizen interest, and for god's sake this isn't socioeconomic discussion.