Indonesia Defence Forum

[Kansel]

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[Chestnut]

the political General as always, need sum money for his campaign later, and oh yeah did anyone know any known trouble/problems of the m109 and m113 for the Army, kinda curious what happened why the Cavs reject the m113 and m109 are not kinda active, is it inaccurate like kh-179 problems or any?

and oh yeah, here's some today's joke feel free to laugh
View attachment 627623

The contract stipulated that they were to be fixed and refurbished before delivery, but when they arrived they were all literally in such terrible condition that the Cavalry literally put their foot down and complained. However as it was Gatot's work, there wasn't much they could say nor could they complain to the agent (PT. Indocertes). In the end they just gave them to the Infantry.

Link related, if you see the woman dressed in the cringe tactical gear, that's Indocertes's CEO.

@Chestnut perhaps you have any source about Hawk corrupt Procurement? Thanks beforehand

Like? From the Soeharto days?

@Chestnut perhaps you have any source about Hawk corrupt Procurement? Thanks beforehand
CMIIW

Anyway, still no plan for shore based AShM? Also i heard we want to change our AShM products, Is that right?

MBDA has repeatedly tried and offered the shore launched Block 3 Exocet but it kept getting rejected. Idk out of lack of requirements or that the Navy doesn't want the Army to operate shore based AShM batteries.

 

[kooppyyy]

Got this picture from Molay facebook page

From so many color available our army keep choosing the black ones, meanwhile the police is more tactical in their choice

It really does tick me off! How does the army brass looking at it thought "yeah black will go better in our operating environment", damn these parade mentality!

Btw, to whoever was wondering about how the M113/M109 deal is the result of corruption, you can read this link. It's blocked by a paywall but the URL should give you a hint of what happened.

https://yosefardi.com/2018/04/tomy-winata-gatot-nurmantyo-and-pt-indocertes/

Tl;Dr Boomers doing boomer things.

There was a report by Angkasa circa 2012/2013 to further acquire 80 Marder, turned out the funds "di sulap" for this soapbox, smh.

what should we look for if the IF-X failed ? straightly to the F-35 ?

incase like that happened , would other countries now started to think twice before letting indonesia to co develop / joint their defense project ?

kalo diliat bener bener kelewat ambis sih proyek nya , mau mulai ya kudu dari light fighter dulu , if i remember lapan had light fighter development plan called as Lapan LF-X , that's just my 2cent of opinion .

F-35 would be ideal, but Rafale would good too, even more Vipers would be good. Whether or not the failure of KFX will affect other countries dealing with Indonesia? Perhaps, in the future SK or other countries might refer to KFX as leverage to negotiate better contracts for themselves. But to be fair, Indonesia has more successful JV/LA in our portfolio, than those of failed ones. So, hopefully it won't be affecting us too much

 

[Chestnut]

We should really just forget about the Rafale. I can guarantee if they are adamant in introducing the Rafale, you can say goodbye to not only the Flankers, but the F-16's as well in the long run. Setting up the relevant infrastructure for them is going to be REALLY costly, not to mention they don't take any of the weapons we currently have in inventory. If they want to reopen the F-5 replacement program once the Wuhanic Plague ends, then better to just go with a US made jet (I'm banking on the F/A-18 SHornet) and call it a day. A US made jet would at least be able to use a few of the equipment and maintenance infrastructure that we already have.

Maybe it's too much to ask but I genuinely hope that the Air Force sets the gold standard on professionalism and competence.

 

[Nike]

We should really just forget about the Rafale. I can guarantee if they are adamant in introducing the Rafale, you can say goodbye to not only the Flankers, but the F-16's as well. Setting up the relevant infrastructure for them is going to be REALLY costly, not to mention they don't take any of the weapons we currently have in inventory. If they want to reopen the F-5 replacement program once the Wuhanic Plague ends, then better to just go with a US made jet (I'm banking on the F/A-18 SHornet) and call it a day. A US made jet would at least be able to use a few of the equipment and maintenance infrastructure that we already have.

Maybe it's too much to ask but I genuinely hope that the Air Force sets the gold standard on professionalism and competence.

If they adamant to pursue heavy fighter class, F 15 is actually much much cheaper to acquire and logical choice for first timer user and also NATO standard follower compared to Rafale or EFT. That's real bomb trucks.

Actually no second hand policy is killing much of Air Force options....

 

[Chestnut]

I'm just more keen on the cost-to-capability ratio on the F/A-18. Although the F-15EX is a superior strike aircraft (and with the AMBER rack could likely be better at interception duties), the SHornet has the advantage of being able to be made into a dedicated EW aircaft and if need be a buddy tanker. Not including the fact that unlike the Eagle the SHornet can actually carry the AGM-88 HARM, which when combined with the Growler makes for a formidable SEAD aircraft.

 

[kooppyyy]

We should really just forget about the Rafale. I can guarantee if they are adamant in introducing the Rafale, you can say goodbye to not only the Flankers, but the F-16's as well. Setting up the relevant infrastructure for them is going to be REALLY costly, not to mention they don't take any of the weapons we currently have in inventory. If they want to reopen the F-5 replacement program once the Wuhanic Plague ends, then better to just go with a US made jet (I'm banking on the F/A-18 SHornet) and call it a day. A US made jet would at least be able to use a few of the equipment and maintenance infrastructure that we already have.

Maybe it's too much to ask but I genuinely hope that the Air Force sets the gold standard on professionalism and competence.

I'm inclined to agree with those points. Ah yes, Super Bug, that one escaped me! Yea, SH would be a good alternative for us, it would boost our interoperability with allied players in the region as well. Would be good if we buy it in bulk with other Boeing products (Not sure about KC-46 though).

Actually no second hand policy is killing much of Air Force options....

Is that actually an active policy? No wonder our air force brass didn't bat an eye when those ex-RAAF Hornets goes on sale wkwkwk

 

[Gen3115]

If they adamant to pursue heavy fighter class, F 15 is actually much much cheaper to acquire and logical choice for first timer user and also NATO standard follower compared to Rafale or EFT. That's real bomb trucks.

Actually no second hand policy is killing much of Air Force options....

In my opinion, when it comes to jets, I think our only choice would be either to go American or Russian. Best choice in my opinion is either go with either the F-15 which has very high commonality with the F-16 since they can run on the same engine and have similar armaments set or F/A-18E/F which is actually a good bang for the buck in my opinion since its quite affordable yet very capable or this might sound a bit more crazy, we could also go for the F-35 like what the Vice Defense Minister stated.

To be honest in my opinion, despite the Su-35 not really having that much commonality with our Flanker fleet, it at least could share some of the same armaments as our current fleet of Flankers, choosing something like Rafale would mean we have to buy new armaments, support infrastructure, etc and we've never had experience with French jets despite the Rafale being able to link up and datalink through Link 16. If we really want EU jets, I actually think Gripen or Typhoon is a better option.

Also correct me if i'm wrong but despite the Su-35 not having much commonality with our Su-27's and Su-30's (i mean even our Su-27 and Su-30 don't have much commonality with each other), one of the reasons the Su-35 were picked other than it being able to make the most money for some politicians is that compared to newer variants of the Su-30, the Su-35 comes from the same plant (KnAAPO) as the Su-27/30's and because of that there were hopes for the possibility of having an MRO facility for the 3 types of Flankers, but yea I'm skeptical Russia will ever be willing to let us have an MRO and the other thing that bothers me is just the Flankers don't have a place in a future network-centric focused TNI-AU.

 

[Chestnut]

They will never give us an MRO. Us sending them back for maintenance is a heavy cash cow for them.

We really shouldn't be buying any Russian products at this point. There isn't much of a future for them. I'm willing to go as far as giving the Marines French made vehicles to replace the Russian ones (France isn't picky on embargos, and they have are quite known in doing the exact opposite of what the US and the rest of NATO wants to show off their sovereignty). Sorry to say but Russia is pretty much done for when it comes to military equipment. Even their Chinese equivalents are getting on par or surpassing their tech.

 

[Nike]

BTW I personally would really love to have more F/A 50 as light fighter /trainer and patrol duty units. The infrastructure is here and they shouldn't much demanding and comparable to our Hawks. This will left the heavier unit to have more leeway and preserve their flight hours

It's actually quite a mistake to bought Super Tucano as they don't bring much additional capability nor doing much in peer to peer conflict.

 

[Chestnut]

Agreed. Though as much as we have to look towards peer conflict, the Super Tucanos are sorely needed for COIN ops. Like it or not the reality of the life in Indonesia is that because its a very multicultural country, secession and rebellion is going to be very common place, especially with an uncertain economic situation. Maybe in the next 20 years we wouldn't need them, but with things like the OPM currently running amok and (likely) supported by state actors, you're still going to need COIN assets.

 

[Nilgiri]

Agreed. Though as much as we have to look towards peer conflict, the Super Tucanos are sorely needed for COIN ops. Like it or not the reality of the life in Indonesia is that because its a very multicultural country, secession and rebellion is going to be very common place, especially with an uncertain economic situation. Maybe in the next 20 years we wouldn't need them, but with things like the OPM currently running amok and (likely) supported by state actors, you're still going to need COIN assets.

Where exactly do these go on in Indonesia case? Is it mostly Papua or there is still some spread in other islands?

 

[Kansel]

Like? From the Soeharto days?

Ya, i heard the price has been marked up so bad that one hawk is equivalent with one F18 price.

 

[Nike]

Where exactly do these go on in Indonesia case? Is it mostly Papua or there is still some spread in other islands?

exclusive in Papua only, there is much to do to quell the disturbance . The most common disturbance is wild shooting in area near Freeport mine city and mountains jungles in central Papua (pegunungan Puncak Jaya). Well we can't increasing the military personnel from outside Papua too much meanwhile the recruitment from local population is on going and taking time before they can be fielded in numbers.

While government efforts to building more infrastructure is on going but surely rejection still comes

Agreed. Though as much as we have to look towards peer conflict, the Super Tucanos are sorely needed for COIN ops. Like it or not the reality of the life in Indonesia is that because its a very multicultural country, secession and rebellion is going to be very common place, especially with an uncertain economic situation. Maybe in the next 20 years we wouldn't need them, but with things like the OPM currently running amok and (likely) supported by state actors, you're still going to need COIN assets.

For COIN ops, especially in papua mountains and jungles, Super Tucano actually doesn't hold the candle. Bad weather, unforgiving terrain, thick folliage of jungle canopy is not suited for Tucano deployment not to mention the lightly armed of Tucano (with .50 cal ) doesn't mean much to spray from higher the enemies hiding among thick woods, unless you want to unleash bombs or rockets . My friend told me, unless you are seasoned veteran of pilot penerbangan perintis in Papua, with high intuition, you are not much welcomed there. Helicopter is the best thing to do the fight there, accompanied by UAV.

 

[Chestnut]

Where exactly do these go on in Indonesia case? Is it mostly Papua or there is still some spread in other islands?

The way I see it until Indonesia has reached a level of economic stability that are not concentrated on Java, secessionist movements would continue to form. They can be formed out of natural resentment at the central government or state-sponsored from abroad.

For COIN ops, especially in papua mountains and jungles, Super Tucano actually doesn't hold the candle. Bad weather, unforgiving terrain, thick folliage of jungle canopy is not suited for Tucano deployment not to mention the lightly armed of Tucano (with .50 cal ) doesn't mean much to spray from higher the enemies hiding among thick woods, unless you want to unleash bombs or rockets . My friend told me, unless you are seasoned veteran of pilot penerbangan perintis in Papua, with high intuition, you are not much welcomed there. Helicopter is the best thing to do the fight there, accompanied by UAV.

I agree, but again I don't see the situation would only be contained to Papua. Keep in mind that certain people aren't happy that the economic development of the country is contained within the bigger islands. What's there to stop a state actor from profiting from the resentment by financing or arming these groups? We already saw a bunch of Type 56's and Type 81's in the hands of the OPM, it would naive to think that this wouldn't happen anywhere else in the Republic. I agree we need more UAV's and helicopters, but we shouldn't discount having COIN planes when our country is very susceptible to Balkanization given the right amount of support.