Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

The current trend with increasing budget will likely make it possible to do so with full armament capability. anyway the government had intent to procure ocean going ships, imho its not only about the numbers of hull,Indonesian vessels lack the punch mostly, we should at the very least aim for a heavy frigate with minimum 64 vls. the task for increasing the numbers of vessels should go to the coast guard. while Navy focuses on real warfighting capability. just my opinion tho.

The problem with that is because our country is so vast we would need far more than 4 to actually make a difference in a peer-2-peer conflict. And even then, there are only certain places that a 10,000 ton vessel can operate as some places are either to shallow whereas corvettes and frigates would have a field day by peeking out behind an island, shoot an Exocet or preferably an NSM, and quickly retreat.

If anything, I'd rather we compromise by getting something similar to an enlarged Littoral Combat Ship such as the enlarged Freedom class being pursued by Saudi Arabia. Their small size and sizeable weapon loadout/AEGIS sensors would outperform most vessels in the region.

 

[Kansel]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1217470326629470209

https://twitter.com/x/status/1217457043931463681

 

[Nike]

Indonesian Navy requests anti-submarine, surface kits for five more Panthers

Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International
15 January 2020

Key Points

• The Indonesian Navy has submitted requests to equip five more Panther helicopters with anti-submarine, surface warfare capabilities
• The service has thus far received 10 of the 11 helicopters it ordered in 2014

The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia: TNI-AL) has submitted a formal request to refit five more of its Airbus Helicopters AS 565MBe Panther helicopters with initial anti-submarine and anti-surface capabilities.

The request has been submitted by the TNI-AL’s office of planning and budget allocation to the country’s Ministry of Defence for consideration.

According to a copy of the request that has been forwarded to Jane’s , the service is requesting IDR384 million (USD30,000) to upgrade two airframes with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) fittings and IDR216 million to install anti-surface equipment on three helicopters.


https://www.janes.com/article/93706/indones...e-more-panthers

 

[Bennedict]

I agree, however doing something like that would likely result in a few hulls that are FFBNW and as such would simply be nothing more than toothless tigers.

Rather I'd propose we expand the corvette and frigate fleet significantly and fit them with advanced weapons and sensors whilst simultaneously expanding the AShW capabilities of the Navy and Air Force. The fact that we are an archipelago nation makes it easy for us to conduct hit and run tactics against other surface adversaries as the shallow and narrow waters would limit ship movements of huge battle groups and submarines.

Agree, we need to mass produce the 90m OPVs by PT DRU/Tesco/PAL to replace the Parchims. Since it's a homegrown design and locally manufactured, the hull cost would be much cheaper thus more money can be spent on weapons and sensors. CMIIW

 

[Nike]

Btw, i still cant fathom why the government cant use the Lion Air crash case and Boeing Max crisis to blackmailling , pushing, extorted or whatever terms you call it against US government and Boeing for them give more concession to us either in economy, technology or defense sector

https://www.businessinsider.com/boe...alled-lion-air-idiots-training-request-2020-1


This jokes is actually cant be allowed anymore

 

[NEKONEKO]

Btw, i still cant fathom why the government cant use the Lion Air crash case and Boeing Max crisis to blackmailling , pushing, extorted or whatever terms you call it against US government and Boeing for them give more concession to us either in economy, technology or defense sector

https://www.businessinsider.com/boe...alled-lion-air-idiots-training-request-2020-1


This jokes is actually cant be allowed anymore

Because IMO that card is not playable, blackmailing them to get something in exchange of purchasing their MAX plane? I don't think public would like to fly using MAX again, I think it will take years to get the public trust, its too risky for the airline.
Even from the released Boeing internal message, some employees won't let their family to fly on MAX.
Blackmailing Boeing by threatening not to buy their other jet? Our airliners need them tho.
Maybe Lion Air can blackmail Boeing because Boeing employee called Lion Air stupid. Hm....
We already threatening EU (Airbus), because of the palm oil discrimination, though we are not saying it clearly.

The problem with that is because our country is so vast we would need far more than 4 to actually make a difference in a peer-2-peer conflict.

Then that should be the goal, a decent number of this big ship.

And even then, there are only certain places that a 10,000 ton vessel can operate as some places are either to shallow whereas corvettes and frigates would have a field day by peeking out behind an island, shoot an Exocet or preferably an NSM, and quickly retreat.

Implying that naval combat will only happen in our own water.

Our water area is so big, and its not only banda shelf we also have the pacific ocean front, indian ocean front north natuna front and our eastern waters which are quite deep.
We should face the enemy on the high seas, not waiting them to get close to our shores. We should venture to the north natuna sea rather than waiting and hiding between natuna island chain. Should face the enemy from south directly rather than waiting and hiding around lombok strait, bali strait, alas strait, alor strait etc, or waiting around chain of island there, we need to patrol and hunt enemy submarines too.

Having assets that can do hit and run tactic are good, but why limit our capabilities to only that?

 

[striver44]

The problem with that is because our country is so vast we would need far more than 4 to actually make a difference in a peer-2-peer conflict. And even then, there are only certain places that a 10,000 ton vessel can operate as some places are either to shallow whereas corvettes and frigates would have a field day by peeking out behind an island, shoot an Exocet or preferably an NSM, and quickly retreat.

If anything, I'd rather we compromise by getting something similar to an enlarged Littoral Combat Ship such as the enlarged Freedom class being pursued by Saudi Arabia. Their small size and sizeable weapon loadout/AEGIS sensors would outperform most vessels in the region.

4 large ships accompanied by lesser vessels is already enough for inter-south east asian level conflict. if we're talking china, then even if we have a dozen of those than it'll make no difference.
to confront china one need to exploit the collective might of countries involved in SCS, china's navy might be big. but it also face huge competition from the even larger US navy, and the quite large JMSDF, and from smaller navies such as ROC navy,Vietnam's navy etc.
I don't think china will want to add another foe to that list.at least not now. but yeah if a 10000 tons frigate is too big then we must find lesser vessels but make it sure that it had enough punch, we're talking at least 48-64 Vls. the task of patrolling the huge Indonesian waters could be tasked with OPV's and the coast guard.

 

[striver44]

Why Indonesia keeps sending mixed signals on the Natuna sea dispute with China
Januari 13, 2020 3.55pm WIB

Indonesian President Joko Widodo (central) visiting a military base in the Natuna islands, near the South China Sea, Indonesia, January 8, 2020.

Indonesia has been sending mixed signals in responding to China’s breach of its exclusive economic zone around the Natuna Islands, near the South China Sea.

The Natuna sea is within 200 nautical miles (370 kilometres) of Indonesia’s coastline, making it part of Indonesia’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

Since December 19, 2019, Chinese fishing vessels have trespassed into the waters around the Natuna Islands, violating Indonesia’s sovereignty as regulated by the 1982’s United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

Despite telling China to back out of its waters by deploying four warships and bolstering its air-force presence in the disputed area, Indonesia has also downplayed the issue.

Indonesia’s defence minister Prabowo Subianto had a relaxed response to China’s breach saying “China is a friendly nation”. Coordinating maritime affairs and investment minister Luhut Pandjaitan echoed Prabowo, saying Indonesia and China should not quarrel “over something that does not need to be an issue”.

This is not the first time China entered Indonesia’s territory around the Natuna Islands. Back in 2016, Indonesia also had to ratchet up defence around the islands after an incursion of Chinese fishing armada and coast guard vessels into its EEZ.

Presiden Joko “Jokowi” Widodo even made the point of defending Indonesia’s rights by having a cabinet meeting aboard a warship.

During the meeting, he ordered the Indonesian navy to step up patrols and improve the capabilities of the Indonesian military.

While China decided to stand down in 2016, the problem never completely disappeared.

Since the last standoff, Indonesia has been increasing its defence, but not to the extent that it has deterred China from causing problems.

To understand this, we have to look into the Indonesian military’s strategic culture.

Indonesia’s military culture
In a recent article in the journal Asian Politics & Policy, I wrote that Indonesia’s decision to neither strengthen its power significantly nor build a coalition to address China’s growing power in the South China Sea is driven by a military culture of focusing on domestic threats.

Since the late 1950s, the Indonesian military has been wary of what they perceived to be foreign-sponsored plots to destroy Indonesia internally.

In 1958, the military dealt with US-sponsored rebel movements called PRRI/Permesta. They are rebellious movements to overthrow the central government.

Then, between the 1950s and ‘60s it faced other domestic political challenges, notably from the Indonesian Communist Party.

Things came to a head on the evening of September 30, 1965, when six of the top army generals were murdered in what the government called a Communist-inspired coup. The army reacted violently by killing and imprisoning hundreds of thousands of Communist Party cadres, supporters, and sympathisers.

Since then, the military has believed any threat to Indonesia will come internally through groups who secretly support and help the enemies of the country, instead of from external direct military invasion.

Thus, Indonesia’s 2015 defense white paper warned of rising internal conflicts based on social, cultural, primordial, ethnic, race and religious dynamics. The military believes these could trigger secession movements such as the Arab Spring and civil wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria.

Such a military culture has distorted Indonesia’s perception of threats. This has resulted in Indonesia spending more money on its army than both the navy and air force combined, even though a strong air and naval force would be far more effective in deterring threats from outside states.

Indonesia has also only spent a measly US$ 7.6 billion on its military in 2018. In contrast, China spent $239 billion.

So, in numbers, getting into a war with China is also unrealistic for Indonesia.

Domestic economic growth priorities
Since Indonesia believes its gravest threat comes from inside, internal stability is a priority for both its military and policymakers.

To maintain internal stability, the Indonesian government believes it needs to focus on economic growth and to deal with foreign-influenced domestic threats.

In the 1960s, under the Suharto government, Indonesia decided to push for high economic growth as it believed that political stability and economic development go hand-in-hand. Growing the economy was also a way for Suharto to legitimise his authoritarian rule.

Suharto’s successors, including Jokowi, also put emphasis on economic growth.

China is currently one of Indonesia’s main sources of investment.

In 2017, both China and Hong Kong invested $5.5 billion in Indonesia, slightly above Japan’s $5 billion. Not surprisingly, Jokowi is wary of invoking China’s wrath lest it will prevent them from getting Chinese investment and access to the Chinese market.

Chinese investment was desperately needed to revive Indonesia’s economy, which is expected to remain sluggish next year due to weakening exports, commodity prices and global uncertainties.

Indonesia’s economic interests in China explains why Jokowi’s aggressive reaction towards China in the 2016 Natuna sea dispute was only short-lived. With so many domestic issues, aggressive foreign policy, let alone challenging China, was not an option.

The way ahead
Indonesia should keep pushing for a peaceful diplomatic solution to this dispute. This includes bringing other players into the scene, such as what Jokowi is currently trying to do by inviting Japan to invest in Natuna Sea, thus forcing China to rethink its strategy.

But it is high time for Indonesia to start rethinking its military doctrine and pay more attention to strengthening its navy and air force, especially in light of growing tensions in the South China Sea.

Of course, the problem is that it is politically expensive and risky. It may also cause domestic disturbances due to changes in military structure and reactions from opposition groups.

But considering the international threats that may arise in the future, especially with the United States reducing its commitments all over the world, Indonesia, and the region as a whole, needs to rethink its assumptions of China.

 

[Raduga]

4 large ships accompanied by lesser vessels is already enough for inter-south east asian level conflict. if we're talking china, then even if we have a dozen of those than it'll make no difference.
to confront china one need to exploit the collective might of countries involved in SCS, china's navy might be big. but it also face huge competition from the even larger US navy, and the quite large JMSDF, and from smaller navies such as ROC navy,Vietnam's navy etc.
I don't think china will want to add another foe to that list.at least not now. but yeah if a 10000 tons frigate is too big then we must find lesser vessels but make it sure that it had enough punch, we're talking at least 48-64 Vls. the task of patrolling the huge Indonesian waters could be tasked with OPV's and the coast guard.

as for me , our next vessel should atleast have a decent layered air protection , 32 vls for long range missile such as Aster 30 , Barak 8 ER or SM-2 (Though the SM-2 would be extremely hard to achieve , Barak 8 could theoretically be possible if we procure it from the 3rd party company like we've done before ) + 48 Short To Medium Range missile such as Aster 15 , CAMM-ER or ESSM .

as for the clash with china , most of the intrussion in indonesia economic zone were done by "White Hulls", its all back to our maritime security agency such as bakamla , KPLP and KKP if they willing to ask for more funding , for our OPV , 30mm - 57mm RCWS such as Leonardo Oto Marlin or bofors , which commonly used in our smaller patrol vessel like PC-40 and FPB-57 is more than enough .

we're still waiting for omnibus law to be applied .

 

[striver44]

as for me , our next vessel should atleast have a decent layered air protection , 32 vls for long range missile such as Aster 30 , Barak 8 ER or SM-2 (Though the SM-2 would be extremely hard to achieve , Barak 8 could theoretically be possible if we procure it from the 3rd party company like we've done before ) + 48 Short To Medium Range missile such as Aster 15 , CAMM-ER or ESSM .

as for the clash with china , most of the intrussion in indonesia economic zone were done by "White Hulls", its all back to our maritime security agency such as bakamla , KPLP and KKP if they willing to ask for more funding , for our OPV , 30mm - 57mm RCWS such as Leonardo Oto Marlin or bofors , which commonly used in our smaller patrol vessel like PC-40 and FPB-57 is more than enough .

we're still waiting for omnibus law to be applied .

I'm for american vls actually, especialy if we could get our hands on the mk41/57 series VLS which allowed for quad packed ESSM's to be installed, having a theoretical fully added missile load of about 128 missile (in 32vls config). as our defence relationship deepens with USA, I don't think there will be a problem to it.

I know that the chances are very slim that the ship will be sailing fully loaded, but it's good to know that we have those capability.
anti-aerial warfare had alaways been a our long standing weakness in the tri service of the armed forces.

 

[Nike]

what kfx look like

 

[Kansel]

I'm for american vls actually, especialy if we could get our hands on the mk41/57 series VLS which allowed for quad packed ESSM's to be installed, having a theoretical fully added missile load of about 128 missile (in 32vls config). as our defence relationship deepens with USA, I don't think there will be a problem to it.

I know that the chances are very slim that the ship will be sailing fully loaded, but it's good to know that we have those capability.
anti-aerial warfare had alaways been a our long standing weakness in the tri service of the armed forces.

That's why i prefer odense made heavy frigate not gonna lie. Look at this

With our current allocated budget (US$ 720 m) it's enough to buy 2 iver with full equipped and ofc with redesigned as what odense offers.

 

[striver44]

That's why i prefer odense made heavy frigate not gonna lie. Look at thisView attachment 600052 View attachment 600053
With our current allocated budget (US$ 720 m) it's enough to buy 2 iver with full equipped and ofc with redesigned as what odense offers.

A fully equipped danish spec-Iver huidtfeldt come quipped with 2x 76mm gun, TNI AL rarely uses 2 main guns on its warships thereby we could cut the cost even more.

 

[Jatosint]

Indonesia increases 2020 defence budget to nearly USD10 billion

Jon Grevatt - Jane's Defence Industry
15 January 2020

The Indonesian government has approved an increase in the proposed defence budget for 2020, taking the allocation to IDR131.2 trillion (USD9.6 billion).

The new figure amounts to a year-on-year increase of 20% and a rise of IDR3.8 trillion over the originally proposed 2020 defence allocation of IDR127.4 trillion.

The approved defence budget was confirmed in a document recently published by the Ministry of Finance, outlining state expenditure for 2020. According to the document, the defence budget amounts to nearly 8% of government spending for the year.

Although not confirmed by the government, the increase to the proposed allocation is likely directed at supporting procurement objectives.

https://www.janes.com/article/93705/indonesia-increases-2020-defence-budget-to-nearly-usd10-billion

Indonesian Navy requests anti-submarine, surface kits for five more Panthers

Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International
15 January 2020

Key Points

• The Indonesian Navy has submitted requests to equip five more Panther helicopters with anti-submarine, surface warfare capabilities
• The service has thus far received 10 of the 11 helicopters it ordered in 2014

The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia: TNI-AL) has submitted a formal request to refit five more of its Airbus Helicopters AS 565MBe Panther helicopters with initial anti-submarine and anti-surface capabilities.

The request has been submitted by the TNI-AL’s office of planning and budget allocation to the country’s Ministry of Defence for consideration.

According to a copy of the request that has been forwarded to Jane’s , the service is requesting IDR384 million (USD30,000) to upgrade two airframes with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) fittings and IDR216 million to install anti-surface equipment on three helicopters.

https://www.janes.com/article/93706...submarine-surface-kits-for-five-more-panthers

old news, Budget 131 T udah diapproved dari tahun lalu

https://twitter.com/x/status/1217666026453647361

 

[Kansel]

A fully equipped danish spec-Iver huidtfeldt come quipped with 2x 76mm gun, TNI AL rarely uses 2 main guns on its warships thereby we could cut the cost even more.

Or we could change the config into 1x 127 mm gun and 2x ciws