Indonesia Defence Forum

[Raduga]

https://navalnews.net/indonesia-devoted-budget-for-naval-hydrographic-ships/

90 meters ? new platform same manufacture (OCEA again) ?

 

[Cromwell]

" RAAF & TNI-AU aircrew & subject matters expertise met at RAAF AFB Amberley to discuss future air to air refuelling cooperation. Our KC-30 ( local designation of A330 MRTT ) & F-16 communitties can work together to share information & experience & build mutual capabillity. "
May 21st 2019
Credit to Fb page FSM

 

[HellFireIndo]

I don't think so since Indonesia already invested on IF-X hangar and equipments. It will be a complete waste of money if Indonesia withdraw.

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Ow shiet, Millenium camo again??? i would prefer "polosan" tbh, especially if it's similar to F-35's color scheme.

 

[Svantana]

 

[chandieka]

View attachment 570094

oouuuchhh.....

Ouch... seriously..

tuh duit di kantongin pasti wkwkwkwk

 

[Gundala]

South Korean is a democracy country, quite volatile even with some gov even accusing their predecessor as corupt and fighting in parliament is quite a habit there. So with Japanese, French, UK and so on. There is no barrier on how democracy can bar your progress, Korean can show you even after the fall of Park dictatorship their economy still can growing at high rates. And their technology advancement is quite at high pace after democracy era ushered in 1990 decades. The differences between us and them is not in political system we embrace, but the willingness and commitmen of us as a whole Nation to finish the work we are doing. Lately we are taking many great lesson from China, Korea and Japanese on how to do business, being hardworking and be more creative, but there is still lingering backward mentality on how to get the results instantly still persist among us as Indonesian. This case of KFX/IFX debacle is a fine example on how we are still lingering at our utmost basic mentality as Indonesian , we want to get the best results instantly, skipping the phase and trying to bargain the sacrifice needed to get process get done.

For the budget, i am very damn sure our economy are big enough to sustain such expenditure it just our priority is not there

Korean maybe the closest example for us compare to Jap/French/UK. Before their democracy arise the prior dictator (if I might say) have build a solid ground by literally giving red carpet to local Private company like samsung, daewoo, LG, etc. We take different approach by building BUMN, Im not saying that our BUMN are not going to prevail but with politic interventions, tight rules & regulation, etc, it might take longer. For example: Selling asset in BUMN required heavy scrutiny, etc. Making our BUMN not agile enough. Mix that with current democracy situation. But once we got past that, BUMN can create Huge investment/Partnership/expansion simply because it backed up by Govt so less risk for financial institution. But it might take longer to mature is all I said.

As for KFX/IFX in regard to budget; I am sure our budget will grow but not to the scale of being able to afford our own fighter developement while we are at it. I dont know how much IFX going to cost, If I can assume it cost $75mil a piece. For 48 aircraft we need $3.6 billion to commit, and with previous development commitment it simply too risky for our current budget and future budget condition.

I just hope KFX/IFX can follow the same model as our submarine. Less risky to fail financially, spread out in comfortable multi years in multiple contracts thus loosen up the budget placement abit, and getting the product while we are at it.

 

[Cromwell]

infographic the number of fighters in service of TNI-AU

 

[Nike]

infographic the number of fighters in service of TNI-AUView attachment 570190

It less than one sixth or fifth of US marines Corps airwing combat unit (as they got more than 400 full fledged 4, 4.5 and 5 gen fighter) , meanwhile US Marines has the least fighter among Navy and Air Force. It show our decreipt and lack of commitmen on how to build a respectable Air Forces

 

[Gundala]

Raduga, this is like the 5th time i saw you posting negative/pessimistic thing on this thread

The technologies can be acquired in the future, and the budget could increase too, it's not an eternal state of we being "just like this", no, every year it keeps getting better than previously, we went from just making licensed guns then to APC and we now going to make armored tracked fighting vehicle. In the Naval sector we went from barely making civilian boats, and then successfully acquired LPD design and building capability and now going to have military submarine-building capability, that in a span of the post-Reformasi timeline, when at the same time we established the 3rd largest democracy, pay Orba debts, recover from 1998 and Tsunami, fighting separatist, and sustains our GDP growth to the now 1.1 trillion USD, Indonesia survived and thriving, and that starting from nothing. Sorry for the preaching, but you got the point.

For KFX/IFX specifically, what i got from the development progress all this year, is that KFX/IFX joint production could be the thing, that we're going to make parts of the IFX and progressively get more and more knowledge and expertise of the design, but back to the original idea that KFX/IFX was meant to be a long-term investment that first comes in a 4.5th+ gen fighter in block 1, and then goes to the block 2 and block 3 where 5th gen tech variants of the KFX/IFX would be introduced, KFX/IFX design philosophy have that in mind (and even the future added technologies), so the most logical option would be to invest in KFX/IFX acquisition and co-production post 2026, or even beyond 2030 if necessary (tbh, wouldn't you think the budget will increase by then? coupled with the fact that basic infrastructure development would be finished before then, the money and the priority wouldn't be diverted that much).

Well, even the Gripen still have plenty of imported components, but that doesn't stop it being a hot export commodity for the Swedes, even with all the imported US-made components, the Gripen still gives them a huge advantage in self-sufficiency, and they were able to make Gripen from 4th gen fighter, up to the so-called 4.5th gen standard Gripen NG, added to that is the Gripen reputation of "mendarat, refuel, rearm dan take-off di jalanan sempit". KFX/IFX is going to be our Gripen, that's what we need to anticipate from this program, other than that, mastering the KFX/IFX design as much as possible and being able to make as much portion of the plane as possible is the go-to plan, that's completely feasible than just went to zero again and design a plane from scratch, just like what we did with our own LPDs that are derived from the South Korean Makassar-class.

Also, there's no comparing of this program to Tejas, it's like comparing apple to orange.

IFX project is a good project for us, no doubt. Its just too expensive for us at this time. I just dont want to see what had happened to us with PT.DI before. After Nurtanio got mouthballed by IMF they literally have to start from scratch due to their SDM/engineers moving out to boeing, airbus, LM, GE, etc. Why they move? Because no project to apply their expertise on. Can the aftermath of IFX leave us a room to create a development project for them? I really hope we can considering those 48 fighter commitment and developement is not cheap.

Personally I prefer that IFX development cost be invested in our own domestic LFX fighter research and we just buy the future KFX/IFX and negotiate our ToT. We might not get as far as being in IFX project diretly but that will sure build a solid ground for LFX project continuation specifically and Aero Industry generally. It will be aweseome to see whooping US$ 2 billion injected to LFX and feed our own scientist with the project and moeny they desperatly needed.

Im not comparing Tejas and IFX head to head. Its the way the project goes from both side. Tejas has been delay too much for too long (30 years developement), by the time it hit the production line its technology already got left behind. I simply dont want that to happen to us in our own future locally made/design fighter.

In my point of view KFX/IFX project is the kind of project that we have to go big (getting 50% share) or just go home

 

[Raduga]

It less than one sixth or fifth of US marines Corps airwing combat unit (as they got more than 400 full fledged 4, 4.5 and 5 gen fighter) , meanwhile US Marines has the least fighter among Navy and Air Force. It show our decreipt and lack of commitmen on how to build a respectable Air Forces

we shouldn't really compared it with US in the first place (unless indonesia aim for power projection around the globe) .... , procurement of another 48-64 unit (F-16 Block 72) or over 4 squadron are more than enough to complete the MEF requirements (and atleast having a respectable fighter fleet on regional scale)

IFX project is a good project for us, no doubt. Its just too expensive for us at this time. I just dont want to see what had happened to us with PT.DI before. After Nurtanio got mouthballed by IMF they literally have to start from scratch due to their SDM/engineers moving out to boeing, airbus, LM, GE, etc. Why they move? Because no project to apply their expertise on. Can the aftermath of IFX leave us a room to create a development project for them? I really hope we can considering those 48 fighter commitment and developement is not cheap.

Personally I prefer that IFX development cost be invested in our own domestic LFX fighter research and we just buy the future KFX/IFX and negotiate our ToT. We might not get as far as being in IFX project diretly but that will sure build a solid ground for LFX project continuation specifically and Aero Industry generally. It will be aweseome to see whooping US$ 2 billion injected to LFX and feed our own scientist with the project and moeny they desperatly needed.

Im not comparing Tejas and IFX head to head. Its the way the project goes from both side. Tejas has been delay too much for too long (30 years developement), by the time it hit the production line its technology already got left behind. I simply dont want that to happen to us in our own future locally made/design fighter.

In my point of view KFX/IFX project is the kind of project that we have to go big (getting 50% share) or just go home

i'd never know there was another fighter project from other state owned agency until you mentioned so , please tell me more about this LF-X ?

 

[Cromwell]

It less than one sixth or fifth of US marines Corps airwing combat unit (as they got more than 400 full fledged 4, 4.5 and 5 gen fighter) , meanwhile US Marines has the least fighter among Navy and Air Force. It show our decreipt and lack of commitmen on how to build a respectable Air Forces

Well at this moment we should forget about adding new squadrons or numbers in regard of fighters. More appropriate is how to optimise existing ones ( maximum upgrades/MLU, adding armaments such as missiles & connect them all under " network centric warfare we want, MRO for Flankers ) & replacing ageing ones ( replacement for 14th squadron & materialising plans to replace Hawks in 1st & 12th squadrons with Viper as many articles mentioned, upgrading T-50i which we currently doing ) then at least we have " minimum " essential air force we want.

 

[Gundala]

Well at this moment we should forget about adding new squadrons or numbers in regard of fighters. More appropriate is how to optimise existing ones ( maximum upgrades/MLU, adding armaments such as missiles & connect them all under " network centric warfare we want, MRO for Flankers ) & replacing ageing ones ( replacement for 14th squadron & materialising plans to replace Hawks in 1st & 12th squadrons with Viper as many articles mentioned, upgrading T-50i which we currently doing ) then at least we have " minimum " essential air force we want.

Yea get those Vipers already, let our Pilots see & feels how it like to have latest avionic technology. Then perhaps TNI-AU can have new idea on how to integrate/expand its own strenght

 

[Cromwell]

Yea get those Vipers already, let our Pilots see & feels how it like to have latest avionic technology. Then perhaps TNI-AU can have new idea on how to integrate/expand its own strenght

That's what i tought rather than ambitious 11 fighter squadrons. I'd prefer to see current 7 fighter squadrons yet optimised with supporting units ( maximum upgrades, stock missiles, interconnected with datalink, situasional awareness supports with AEWC, MRO and aerial refuelling aircrafts ) and all planned to phase out replaced ( 14th squadron in particular, and the plans for 1st & 12th squadrons ).

 

[Nike]

Well at this moment we should forget about adding new squadrons or numbers in regard of fighters. More appropriate is how to optimise existing ones ( maximum upgrades/MLU, adding armaments such as missiles & connect them all under " network centric warfare we want, MRO for Flankers ) & replacing ageing ones ( replacement for 14th squadron & materialising plans to replace Hawks in 1st & 12th squadrons with Viper as many articles mentioned, upgrading T-50i which we currently doing ) then at least we have " minimum " essential air force we want.

Dont know but i still get the message from late planning of Kemenhan, 10 squadrons is the most minimum forces to be sanctioned to guard almost 6 millions kilometer square of Indonesia airspace, and thats must be solely comprised of state of arts machine like Viper and Flanker E. The current compositions of today fighter squadron is very lacking, not to mention we are needed to differentiate between ground support /attack fighter units with aerial superiority and workhorse combat fighter. There is plan to put some older but good aircraft like hawk for secondary patrol duty and ground attack at newly established base like Sam Ratulangi, and let newly acquired high performa fighter to fill their former squadron. Thats why their planning keep changing lately....

 

[Cromwell]

Dont know but i still get the message from late planning of Kemenhan, 10 squadrons is the most minimum forces to be sanctioned to guard almost 6 millions kilometer square of Indonesia airspace, and thats must be solely comprised of state of arts machine like Viper and Flanker E. The current compositions of today fighter squadron is very lacking, not to mention we are needed to differentiate between ground support /attack fighter units with aerial superiority and workhorse combat fighter. There is plan to put some older but good aircraft like hawk for secondary patrol duty and ground attack at newly established base like Sam Ratulangi, and let newly acquired high performa fighter to fill their former squadron. Thats why their planning keep changing lately....

Well getting that 10 - 11 fighter squadrons are no easy i mean it's even been 5 years up & down and no clearance what to replace 14th squadron.