Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

T

Ok i get it, and i agree with the fact that the modules add to the hull's width, it kinda eliminate the advantage of the MT's smaller stature and the PULAT looks like a fragile target. The Turks have other APS from Akkor that functions like the Trophy, with launchers in several points on the tank that could fire grenades that will detonates near the incoming projectile, i think this kind of APS is overall better than the PULAT module, so why wont we just pick that one instead? Well, PULAT is still an APS, so at least there's some improvement lol.

There's no guarantee they would even install an APS on the Tiger let alone the TNI actually procuring it.

 

[HellFireIndo]

T

There's no guarantee they would even install an APS on the Tiger let alone the TNI actually procuring it.

Reminds me of the rendering of Leopard 2s Revolution upgrade rendering back in 2014, it got all these fancy sensors and optics, and RCWS. Turns out there was a quite big miss on that, not all Leopards were upgraded to Revolution standart, and the upgrade doesn't includes the .50 cal RCWS, i remember feeling restless and anxious thinking about it back then lol.

I would prefer that we'll treat this Tiger Medium Tank as a platform where we could test all of the newer tank stuffs on it and how we could modify the tanks to better integrate upgrades and additional components, like add-on Armors, optics, RCWS, APS perhaps? and how we can design and customize the tank to suit their given mission. Maybe we could learn many things and get experience with it, so that perhaps we can go further in developing local industry (MBT)? Too far-fetched i must admit, but that's just some random thoughts tho.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Reminds me of the rendering of Leopard 2s Revolution upgrade rendering back in 2014, it got all these fancy sensors and optics, and RCWS. Turns out there was a quite big miss on that, not all Leopards were upgraded to Revolution standart, and the upgrade doesn't includes the .50 cal RCWS, i remember feeling restless and anxious thinking about it back then lol.

I would prefer that we'll treat this Tiger Medium Tank as a platform where we could test all of the newer tank stuffs on it and how we could modify the tanks to better integrate upgrades and additional components, like add-on Armors, optics, RCWS, APS perhaps? and how we can design and customize the tank to suit their given mission. Maybe we could learn many things and get experience with it, so that perhaps we can go further in developing local industry (MBT)? Too far-fetched i must admit, but that's just some random thoughts tho.

Because the AD doesn't need every parts of the upgrade packages.

It doesn't need the L55 cannon or even the alice smoke charger. Because the situation in indonesia doesn't demand it for a fully upgraded Leo.

 

[mengkom]

sure, ERA filled tank would looks menacing, but do you know that ERA is ONLY effective against HEAT?
it's principle is countering the explosion from projectile with another explosive material upon impact, so that the energy will deflecting in its course then dissipated. ERA are still vulnerable to SABOT or kinetic energy penetrator warhead.

whereas, APS's principle is to shoot incoming warhead (be it HEAT, SABOT or just conventional smaller projectile) away and before it hit tank surface. So in general APS is more efficient against a wider range of threat (as long as the sensor and computer are not overloaded with many data at the same time). The only way to defeat APS is to shoot the tank from many directions at the same time, and hoping 1 or 2 projectile will hit the tank eventually.

i'll say the APS in medium tank is a great addition, considering it will not hindering much in tank maneuverability but greatly improve its survivability.

 

[Jatosint]

Look at that minimum HSE and safety equipment for the workers....no respirator and safety glass for workers who paint the hull and grind the propeller

Anyway, did they really eat the clams?

 

[Nike]

 

[deadlast]

sure, ERA filled tank would looks menacing, but do you know that ERA is ONLY effective against HEAT?
it's principle is countering the explosion from projectile with another explosive material upon impact, so that the energy will deflecting in its course then dissipated. ERA are still vulnerable to SABOT or kinetic energy penetrator warhead.

Not entirely wrong, but not technically right either. Some ERA/NxRA/NERA do have an ability to at least reduced the performance or even breaks the penetrator rods of kinetic energy rounds.

whereas, APS's principle is to shoot incoming warhead (be it HEAT, SABOT or just conventional smaller projectile) away and before it hit tank surface. So in general APS is more efficient against a wider range of threat (as long as the sensor and computer are not overloaded with many data at the same time). The only way to defeat APS is to shoot the tank from many directions at the same time, and hoping 1 or 2 projectile will hit the tank eventually.

Similarly, not all APS (hardkill APS) are designed to be able to defeat conventional solid projectile (APDS/APFSDS), HEAT or the like (RPG/ATGM) round maybe, they're mostly larger and packed full of explosive and not a small solid tungsten/hardened steel rods/slugs.

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Just wanted to add this for further readings, a nice overviews of several APS are discussed in this articles from Below The Turret Ring blogpost:
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2017/01/hardkill-aps-overview.html

Also, notices the similarity between Ukrainian Zaslon APS and the Turkish PULAT APS.

 

[Nike]

Not entirely wrong, but not technically right either. Some ERA/NxRA/NERA do have an ability to at least reduced the performance or even breaks the penetrator rods of kinetic energy rounds.


Similarly, not all APS (hardkill APS) are designed to be able to defeat conventional solid projectile (APDS/APFSDS), HEAT or the like (RPG/ATGM) round maybe, they're mostly larger and packed full of explosive and not a small solid tungsten/hardened steel rods/slugs.

-----------
Just wanted to add this for further readings, a nice overviews of several APS are discussed in this articles from Below The Turret Ring blogpost:
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2017/01/hardkill-aps-overview.html

Also, notices the similarity between Ukranian Zaslon APS and the Turkish PULAT APS.

Turkish nowadays kinda act like Ukraina products reseller with new package touch

 

[deadlast]

Turkish nowadays kinda act like Ukraina products reseller with new package touch

Well, based on their situation, The Ukraine need the money and the Turks need the technology. One of the benefit of a nation who has a solid research/manufacturing capabilities with an economy and political will to back it I guess. Unlike certain country who always fuss about technology transfer but backs-off after receiving the bill. :p

 

[Logam42]

Turkish nowadays kinda act like Ukraina products reseller with new package touch

Well, based on their situation, The Ukraine need the money and the Turks need the technology. One of the benefit of a nation who has a solid research/manufacturing capabilities with an economy and political will to back it I guess. Unlike certain country who always fuss about technology transfer but backs-off after receiving the bill. :p

Yup to all three accounts!

Pretty shrewd way for Turkey to position itself IMO. They get all the technology they want, and then resell the tech they think is ok to resell.

In a way, it compensates them for the extra risk of trying to tech-tranfer with Ukraine. They have a ton of other nations waiting to tech-transfer with them and willing to pay a premium on top of that for the sake of higher reliability and stability that Ukraine by definition can't offer right now.

 

[HellFireIndo]

Well, based on their situation, The Ukraine need the money and the Turks need the technology. One of the benefit of a nation who has a solid research/manufacturing capabilities with an economy and political will to back it I guess. Unlike certain country who always fuss about technology transfer but backs-off after receiving the bill. :p

And what country that would be Mr.deadlast?

I smelled that in the upcoming years the Turks would offer more and more stuffs to us, especially Army's combat vehicles. I think they are the second one in being the most aggressive in offering their products to us, of course after the Swedish SAAB (although their products are good, we just can't accommodate more armament models, that would be a logistical burden).

A part of me says that we should take the opportunity to cooperate with them more, but the other part says that the Turks are just another supplier and we shouldn't rely on them too much. The difference is that the Turks are willing, and even actively offering their latest products that other suppliers simply won't offer. Although there's certainly better options, i think the Turks have the best option in fulfilling the requirement of being affordable, contains ToT schemes, benefiting the advancement of local industries, filling the missing armament types slot, offers a close-up access to many types of armaments that we previously never have in our inventory (like the SPAAG, mobile AA missile platform, APS, torpedo decoy, or even the AIP technology) and generally free from any possibility of embargo.

We should check their products, and let them compete with other suppliers. We have so much left to do in modernizing the Military and we don't have much options or time to reconsider the offers, so maybe closing in to Turkey is indeed a good move, other than Indonesia's deepening cooperation with South Korea in the defense sector.

 

[mandala]

Reminds of ERA, the principle is very similar, so what's the key difference between them? how PULAT works as an APS and not ERA?

Just wanted to add this for further readings, a nice overviews of several APS are discussed in this articles from Below The Turret Ring blogpost:
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2017/01/hardkill-aps-overview.html

Also, notices the similarity between Ukrainian Zaslon APS and the Turkish PULAT APS.

Thanks for the link. So basicly the tube can rotate itself depending on where a projectile is coming from.

Anyway a close-up view of PULAT APS on the Kaplan MT. Credit to Defence Turk.

https://www.instagram.com/defence_turk/

Btw looks like the PULAT APS tubes are retractable. CMIIW.

Turkish M60T fitted with PULAT APS with the tubes extended:

We can see the same tubes on the side and front of the hull on the Turkish M60T during IDEF 2019 retracted :

https://savunmasanayist.com/2019/05/04/sta-atti-pulat-tuttu/

From the above Kaplan MT pics we can see also the front and rear tubes of the PULAT APS retracted.

 

[Chestnut]

Because the AD doesn't need every parts of the upgrade packages.

It doesn't need the L55 cannon or even the alice smoke charger. Because the situation in indonesia doesn't demand it for a fully upgraded Leo.

More like they don't have enough money.

 

[striver44]

More like they don't have enough money.

No money+ the army leaders aren't really interested in mechanized warfare either

 

[HellFireIndo]

No money+ the army leaders aren't really interested in mechanized warfare either

More like they don't have enough money.

So which one is correct? Indonesia can't use mechanized assets effectively due to the geography, and therefore better invest in support assets, better equipped infantry and force multipliers, mechanized force is better designed around today's COIN scenario and asymmetric warfare, no more heavy ground assets as using them against the like of insurgents were proven ineffective and already made obsolete by the widespread use of ATGMs by light infantry element.

Or, is it better for the Army top leadership to invest more on the heavy mechanized tank force, as traditionally this element is better suited for rapid movement and firepower, a good mechanized element of the Army is key when fighting peer-to-peer scenario as when such event happened, we would have the upper hand from the very beginning and more options in both taking the offensive and deterrence factor, and in Asymmetric warfare scenario, would still be a boost the strength of the army as it will left the insurgents having less options and chance in fighting off the Army.

I don't have any capacity to say whether one is more correct than the another, but i'm leaning on the first one if at least there are program to upgrade the existing ground assets.