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Indonesia-China Navy To Hold Joint Military Exercise In South China Sea !

say the dreamer who has said if Vietnam has T-90 MBT's without any prove.

Without any "proof" you mean?


You know? I used to have a lot of respect for you sister, but you made me lose it.

I would expect that you have been in the forum long enough and since I know that you read much of the postings about Vietnam, I could only expect that you have learnt enough to know by now that Vietnam is so damn super secretive about everything in the military that they don't show or announce anything other than what they cannot hide (such as planes and ships). So regrettably, I can't show you pics or give you proof.

There is an unwritten policy in the Vietnamese military where they only show something when they have deployed a replacement or a much more modern version. Only a few months ago, for the very first time, VN shown pics of their T-62's (even that is very old), because they just started to deploy the T-90. That's how it works in Vietnam and I can assure you that you are not going to see pics of those T-90's until a more modern tank gets deployed (probably the Armata tank from Russia a number of years from now).

The issue of the T-90 is the same as with the Buk M2M air defense system, the Pantzir, Iskander, etc and Spyder very soon, etc, etc. That's how it is. People that are minimally connected know for a fact that those systems are deployed, but there is not a wild chance of pics or announcements.

That's how it works in Vietnam. Sorry if you don't understand that.

I have to say, you are a bit childish and opinionated sister. You should try to rise above that.

Love sister :smitten:
 
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Than what is Vietnam today, what kind of country Vietnam today? with just a tiny car production per-year (around 20.000 cars per-year), low level income per-capita, warmonger country in which just barely escaping themselves from chronic poverty at Sub-Saharan standard, communist at best, and with their VCP elites always licking their Chinese master assholes even after the rig mess last month.

You guys never get tired huh? Now we have Vietnam - Indonesia competition. Very healthy discussion !!!!

Car production competition, what's next? Mobile phone production competition? Tennis shoes production competition?

I think its time to end this foolish tirade you guys, can you give it up?
There are better things to do with our time.
 
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Without any "proof" you mean?

You know? I used to have a lot of respect for you sister, but you made me lose it.
I would expect that you have been in the forum long enough and since I know that you read much of the postings about Vietnam, I could only expect that you have learnt enough to know by now that Vietnam is so damn super secretive about everything in the military that they don't show or announce anything other than what they cannot hide (such as planes and ships). So regrettably, I can't show you pics or give you proof.

There is an unwritten policy in the Vietnamese military where they only show something when they have deployed a replacement or a much more modern version. Only a few months ago, for the very first time, VN shown pics of their T-62 (even that is very old), because they just started to deploy the T-90. That's how it works in Vietnam and I can assure you that you are not going to see pics of those T-90's until a more modern tank gets deployed (probably the Armata tank from Russia a number of years from now).

The issue of the T-90 is the same as with the Buk M2M air defense system, the Pantzir, Iskander, etc and Spyder very soon, etc, etc. That's how it is. People that are minimally connected know for a fact that those systems are deployed, but there is not a wild chance of pics or announcements.

That's how it works in Vietnam. Sorry if you don't understand that.

I have to say, you are a bit childish and opinionated sister. You should try to rise above that.

Love sister :smitten:

Up to you on how do you thing about me, but listen not every person can be persuaded to believing something without any factual data and reliable prove and i am is one of them.

Can you believe me if i am said actually Indonesia have more than 5 submarine in active duty today? two of them is Kilo project 630 class submarine and one them is Amur class 1450 besides our U-209 class. And not to mention actually Indonesia have four squadron of Flanker, and we hide them around our bush and forest and one of our Island. And not to forget Indonesian Air Force operating more than three brigade of Buk-M System along with S-300 PV. That's our secret project, Indonesian government doing that secretly and fund the project with the slashing of Fuel subsidize some times ago
 
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Up to you on how do you thing about me, but listen not every person can be persuaded to believing something without any factual data and reliable prove and i am is one of them.

Can you believe me if i am said actually Indonesia have more than 5 submarine in active duty today? two of them is Kilo project 630 class submarine and one them is Amur class 1450 besides our U-209 class. And not to mention actually Indonesia have four squadron of Flanker, and we hide them around our bush and forest and one of our Island. And not to forget Indonesian Air Force operating more than three brigade of Buk-M System along with S-300 PV. That's our secret project, Indonesian government doing that secretly and fund the project with the slashing of Fuel subsidize some times ago

My answer would depend on how Indonesia is known for doing things.

There are people that make up stuff all the time everywhere, in every country. Their ego feels good doing that.
I often correct things in the Wikipedia pages about the Vietnamese military because some people do things like that, like recently they had listed that VN had already ordered the 6 P-3C Orions, what order? That's stupid.
Someone wrote there since 2 years ago that VN had ordered 15 Brahmos from India, another stupid thing.

From some countries, I will believe that is very likely that they hide things if they have a record of doing that.
I would definitely believe that about China, Burma and others.

Other countries have a clear record of showing all the "normal stuff", so in those cases I will not believe it.

Most likely I would not believe you if you say that because Indonesia is quite open about that.

But Vietnam? Come on, you don't know how the Viet military does things in that regard? Anybody that knows the Viet military a bit knows that they are like that and I think you do too, so if you don't want to believe, that's ok, its your right, but don't go on the forum and tell me that is my wet dream since you already know how that works in VN and you know that you can't prove it either.

Fair enough?

Peace?
 
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Than what is Vietnam today, what kind of country Vietnam today? with just a tiny car production per-year (around 20.000 cars per-year), low level income per-capita, warmonger country in which just barely escaping themselves from chronic poverty at Sub-Saharan standard, communist at best, and with their VCP elites always licking their Chinese master assholes even after the rig mess last month
Now you get mad, ms !? Because we didn't recognize Indonesia as de factor leader of ASEAN !?
Not good, not good ...
May be Singaporian or Malaysian can make you happy, go and ask them or made them said it, ok !?
 
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Up to you on how do you thing about me, but listen not every person can be persuaded to believing something without any factual data and reliable prove and i am is one of them.

Can you believe me if i am said actually Indonesia have more than 5 submarine in active duty today? two of them is Kilo project 630 class submarine and one them is Amur class 1450 besides our U-209 class. And not to mention actually Indonesia have four squadron of Flanker, and we hide them around our bush and forest and one of our Island. And not to forget Indonesian Air Force operating more than three brigade of Buk-M System along with S-300 PV. That's our secret project, Indonesian government doing that secretly and fund the project with the slashing of Fuel subsidize some times ago

I'll elaborate a bit more. VN can't hide purchases from countries or companies that will not agree to keep the purchase secret.

Israel for example, they will hide everything (if possible) if the customer request secrecy. Many other countries, often European, etc will not agree to hide, they are legally required to disclose their sales.

But even in those cases where countries reveal the purchases, look how VN acts.
The Sigma contract for example, The Dutch company announced the signing of the contract, the French suppliers did the same, and what about VN? Not a word, even when the purchase is out in the open, not a word.
That's how they are. I don't see why, but that's how they are. I don't like it, but its not my policy. I can't do anything about that.

I hope this makes things more clear for you.

Up to you on how do you thing about me, but listen not every person can be persuaded to believing something without any factual data and reliable prove and i am is one of them.

Can you believe me if i am said actually Indonesia have more than 5 submarine in active duty today? two of them is Kilo project 630 class submarine and one them is Amur class 1450 besides our U-209 class. And not to mention actually Indonesia have four squadron of Flanker, and we hide them around our bush and forest and one of our Island. And not to forget Indonesian Air Force operating more than three brigade of Buk-M System along with S-300 PV. That's our secret project, Indonesian government doing that secretly and fund the project with the slashing of Fuel subsidize some times ago

I will give you another hint sister:

The Viet defense budget almost double in the last 3 years. Where do you think that money has being going since not much equipment has been announced? Salaries? Certainly not. You can guess.

I ask you again: Peace?
 
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Back on Topic...

China Said to Plan $16.3 Billion Fund to Revive ‘Silk Road’ Trading Route

By Bloomberg On November 5, 2014

Port of Shanghai file photo (c) Shutterstock/chungking

By Bloomberg News

Nov. 5 (Bloomberg) — China plans a $16.3 billion fund to finance construction of infrastructure linking its markets to three continents as President Xi Jinping pushes forward with his plans to revive the centuries-old Silk Road trading route.

The fund, overseen by Chinese policy banks, will be used to build and expand railways, roads and pipelines in Chinese provinces that are part of the strategy to facilitate trade over land and shipping routes, according to government officials who participated in drafting the plan.

More policies will be rolled out soon to encourage Chinese lenders to finance infrastructure in countries along the route connecting China to Europe, the officials said. They asked not to be identified as they weren’t authorized to speak publicly about the plans. Chinese companies will also be urged to invest in the countries and bid for contracts, the officials said.

The New Silk Road plan, comprising a land-based belt and a maritime route, has been referred to as a Chinese national strategy after Xi first proposed the idea in Kazakhstan a year ago. It envisions an economic cooperation bloc through to the Mediterranean that revives the old Silk Road, where trade helped developed civilizations along the route.

“Previously, China focused on attracting foreign investment, but now the shift is being made — China’s more and more encouraging its capital to go abroad,” said Feng Yujun, senior researcher at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations in Beijing.

APEC Summit

Xi’s overseas push comes as he tries to shape China as a great power, restoring its maritime dominance in the Asia- Pacific and extending its political and economic influence across the region, where it has been asserting itself in territorial spats. Next week, Xi will reinforce the image as he hosts U.S. President Barack Obama and other world leaders at the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Beijing.

The State Council Information Office didn’t immediately respond to faxed questions seeking comment yesterday.

The fund will finance domestic infrastructure construction and will be overseen by Chinese policy banks such as China Development Bank, the officials said. Financing will be limited to regions in the plan: Central Asia, the Middle East, South Asia, Southeast Asia and parts of Europe, they said.

The plan signals “a shift in China’s strategic thought,” said Zhang Yunling, director of the Institute of Asia-Pacific Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. The past three decades of China’s development have been focused on “absorbing foreign investment” and the next step will be about the outflow of Chinese development to its neighbors, he said.

Provinces Competing

Xi raised the “New Silk Road Economic Belt” idea at his speech in the Kazakhstan capital Astana on September 7, 2013. One month later, when addressing the Indonesian parliament in Jakarta, he pitched “the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.”

The proposal has inspired competition between officials from Chinese provinces, especially the poorer western regions, seeking to tap the funding. Vice premier Wang Yang said in September in Urumqi, the capital of the western Xinjiang region, that it had a “prominent role to play” in the economic belt and the central government “supports Xinjiang to seize the historical opportunity” to become the hub of the belt.

The southern province of Guangdong, a manufacturing center that helped power China’s economic rise over the past three decades, in early November hosted the inaugural international expo for the maritime Silk Road, with 42 countries participating.

India, Afghanistan

“One of the most important considerations in the strategy is its attempt to reduce the imbalance between the eastern coastal areas and the western inland areas,” Feng said.

Xi, who has said his home province Shaanxi was the starting point for the old Silk Road, has recently ramped up efforts to sell his strategy overseas. During state visits in September he secured verbal commitments from three countries along the routes — Tajikistan, the Maldives and Sri Lanka. India has also shown interest and Afghanistan’s new president Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai said at his summit with Xi in last week that his country was keen to be involved, according to the official Xinhua News Agency.

According to a map published on the website of the official Xinhua News Agency in May, the land-based Silk Road starts from the ancient capital city of Xi’an, stretching west through Lanzhou and Urumqi before running southwest across Central Asia, the Middle East and Europe.

The sea-based Maritime Silk Road goes through Guangdong and the southernmost Chinese province of Hainan, an island, en route to the Malacca Strait and Indian Ocean. It traverses the Horn of Africa before entering the Red Sea and Mediterranean. The two roads are supposed to meet in Venice.

Once complete, the Silk Roads will bring “new opportunities and a new future to China and every country along the road that it is seeking to develop,” according to the Xinhua article.

Copyright 2014 Bloomberg.

China Said to Plan $16.3 Billion Fund to Revive 'Silk Road' Trading Route - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News

Indonesia wants to join Asian infrastructure bank, but with condition
Nov 07,2014
JAKARTA, Nov. 7 (Xinhua) -- The Indonesian government principally agreed to join the membership of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) proposed by China, but would request several conditions, Cabinet Secretary Andi Widjajanto disclosed here on Friday.

The secretary declined to elaborate on the conditions but said that President Joko Widodo would unveil them during discussions on the issue in APEC meeting in Beijing, China from Nov. 10 to 11. "Principally we agree (to join it), but it has to be under some condition," Widjajanto said at the State Palace. "President Jokowi will mention the conditions before we join in the infrastructure bank,"he revealed.

Indonesia is the only ASEAN country which has not signed the membership in the bank, according to him.

The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) is an international financial institution proposed by China, aiming at providing funds to finance infrastructures projects in Asia- Pacific region.

Indonesia badly needs funds for boosting infrastructure development to pursue 7 percent economic growth within three years from expectation of 5.2 to 5.3 percent for this year.

Indonesia wants to join Asian infrastructure bank, but with condition | Shanghai Daily
 
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My answer would depend on how Indonesia is known for doing things.

There are people that make up stuff all the time everywhere, in every country. Their ego feels good doing that.
I often correct things in the Wikipedia pages about the Vietnamese military because some people do things like that, like recently they had listed that VN had already ordered the 6 P-3C Orions, what order? That's stupid.
Someone wrote there since 2 years ago that VN had ordered 15 Brahmos from India, another stupid thing.

From some countries, I will believe that is very likely that they hide things if they have a record of doing that.
I would definitely believe that about China, Burma and others.

Other countries have a clear record of showing all the "normal stuff", so in those cases I will not believe it.

Most likely I would not believe you if you say that because Indonesia is quite open about that.

But Vietnam? Come on, you don't know how the Viet military does things in that regard? Anybody that knows the Viet military a bit knows that they are like that and I think you do too, so if you don't want to believe, that's ok, its your right, but don't go on the forum and tell me that is my wet dream since you already know how that works in VN and you know that you can't prove it either.

Fair enough?

Peace?



yeah i believe that, i too will believe if you said Vietnam have Tae Po Dong missile and hiding them in the basement of some National palaces in Vietnam, i too will believe if you said Vietnam have more than three hundreds T-90 and hide them somewhere in the jungle, ready to ambush wandering PLA ground forces
 
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yeah i believe that, i too will believe if you said Vietnam have Tae Po Dong missile and hiding them in the basement of some National palaces in Vietnam, i too will believe if you said Vietnam have more than three hundreds T-90 and hide them somewhere in the jungle, ready to ambush wandering PLA ground forces

Nobody is trying to force you to believe anything sister. Wether you believe or not does not change reality and my postings in the Viet military forum are meant for the Vietnamese people for the most part and others that care about the thread. Its not important to me if you believe or not.

Love and Peace to you sister :smitten:
 
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Sorry, but I have serious doubts about that and when you say "I'm better than you" you are definitely being offensive to the other party.

Frankly, if you were Singapore, I could see you saying that you are better than all others in ASEAN, but frankly, there is only one Singapore and all the others in ASEAN are incredibly corrupted, dysfunctional countries in so many ways and that's a fact my friend, Indonesia and Vietnam included. It will take 2 or 3 generations until all these countries become half way decent, developed countries with a society naturally inclined to a true following of decent standards of social behavior and governance. Japan and Singapore were not done in a day, it takes decades (at least) and the process doesn't start until there is an active educational effort from the top to educate people to follow those standards. An educational process that I still don't see any of these countries starting to do so far, so the clock didn't even start yet.

@Viet You live in a highly developed country, Germany, do you agree with me? I'm not trying to be derogatory to ASEAN countries, but that's what I see.

@Nihonjin1051 What's your take? Appreciate your input.

When we think of leadership we think of control, right? However, I think we should have a more utilitarian view towards the aspects of leadership and in processes that leads to positive leadership and overall positive group dynamic. Going back to leadership there are 5 types:

1) Participative

2) Transactional

3) Transformational

4) Autocratic

5) Laissez-Faire

Transformational leadership style will depend on the high levels of communication from the management level in order to meet goals. Leaders in this style motivate the partners and enhance productivity as well as efficiency through clear communication and high visibility; this means high transparency. In this type of leadership style, there is requirement of management involvement , active that is, to meet the goals and objectives of the organization.

Transactional leadership style entails management to receive some tasks to perform and provide either rewards or punishments to team members based on the performance results. In Participative leadership style, also known as democratic leadership style, there is value in the input of team members / peers, but the final decision rests on the participative leader.

Laissez-Faire leadership style lacks any direct supervision , whereas autocratic leadership style will allow management or leaders of organizations to make singular decisions alone without any input from peers.

In my view, ASEAN is an active community for all member states. Indonesia, in my opinion, as the largest member, has a moral obligation to make sure that the member states whom it is integrated with are completing necessary tasks as provided and specified by the tenets of ASEAN membership.

That said let me reiterate the Objective of ASEAN:

The ASEAN Declaration states that the aims and purposes of the Association are: (1) to accelerate the economic growth, social progress and cultural development in the region through joint endeavors in the spirit of equality and partnership in order to strengthen the foundation for a prosperous and peaceful community of Southeast Asian nations, and (2) to promote regional peace and stability through abiding respect for justice and the rule of law in the relationship among countries in the region and adherence to the principles of the United Nations Charter.

Thus said, ASEAN is governed by certain principles which include the cooperation of member states, the renunciation of the threat or use of force, the settlement of disputes vis-à-vis peaceful mechanisms, the non-interference of any one’s internal affairs, and lastly the mutual respect for each other’s independence , territorial integrity and identity of member states.

It is rather clear , through the guidelines of ASEAN that Indonesia , Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Myanmar, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia and Brunei are all equal members and partners. There is no singular leader, in the traditional definition of manager and leader, however, in the moral and legal basis, each state is expected to have a participative leadership style. Indonesia, like Vietnam, is a participative leader, and like other member states, has a stake in the future of the region. I will stress that due to Indonesia’s shear size (over 256 million; with an economy that is over $800 billion (in nominal gdp)), she has the resources readily available to help mediate conflicts in the region. Now, we notice that in the 2010 Preah Vihear Temple border conflict between Thailand and Cambodia, we saw the active participation of Indonesia’s Minister of Foreign Affairs in trying to mediate the crisis. We saw again in 2012 that the Indonesian Minister of Foreign Affairs mediated the situation between the Philippines’ insistence in a joint statement against China regarding the Spratly’s. In this sense, I see Indonesia as not only a participative member, but she has the potential of becoming the regional leader with participative and transformational leadership styles.

That said, I do wish the best for all ASEAN member states. I wish the best for the development and success of Indonesia and Vietnam. For Indonesian people and Vietnamese people.
 
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When we think of leadership we think of control, right? However, I think we should have a more utilitarian view towards the aspects of leadership and in processes that leads to positive leadership and overall positive group dynamic. Going back to leadership there are 5 types:

1) Participative

2) Transactional

3) Transformational

4) Autocratic

5) Laissez-Faire

Transformational leadership style will depend on the high levels of communication from the management level in order to meet goals. Leaders in this style motivate the partners and enhance productivity as well as efficiency through clear communication and high visibility; this means high transparency. In this type of leadership style, there is requirement of management involvement , active that is, to meet the goals and objectives of the organization.

Transactional leadership style entails management to receive some tasks to perform and provide either rewards or punishments to team members based on the performance results. In Participative leadership style, also known as democratic leadership style, there is value in the input of team members / peers, but the final decision rests on the participative leader.

Laissez-Faire leadership style lacks any direct supervision , whereas autocratic leadership style will allow management or leaders of organizations to make singular decisions alone without any input from peers.

In my view, ASEAN is an active community for all member states. Indonesia, in my opinion, as the largest member, has a moral obligation to make sure that the member states whom it is integrated with are completing necessary tasks as provided and specified by the tenets of ASEAN membership.

That said let me reiterate the Objective of ASEAN:

The ASEAN Declaration states that the aims and purposes of the Association are: (1) to accelerate the economic growth, social progress and cultural development in the region through joint endeavors in the spirit of equality and partnership in order to strengthen the foundation for a prosperous and peaceful community of Southeast Asian nations, and (2) to promote regional peace and stability through abiding respect for justice and the rule of law in the relationship among countries in the region and adherence to the principles of the United Nations Charter.

Thus said, ASEAN is governed by certain principles which include the cooperation of member states, the renunciation of the threat or use of force, the settlement of disputes vis-à-vis peaceful mechanisms, the non-interference of any one’s internal affairs, and lastly the mutual respect for each other’s independence , territorial integrity and identity of member states.

It is rather clear , through the guidelines of ASEAN that Indonesia , Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Myanmar, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia and Brunei are all equal members and partners. There is no singular leader, in the traditional definition of manager and leader, however, in the moral and legal basis, each state is expected to have a participative leadership style. Indonesia, like Vietnam, is a participative leader, and like other member states, has a stake in the future of the region. I will stress that due to Indonesia’s shear size (over 256 million; with an economy that is over $800 billion (in nominal gdp)), she has the resources readily available to help mediate conflicts in the region. Now, we notice that in the 2010 Preah Vihear Temple border conflict between Thailand and Cambodia, we saw the active participation of Indonesia’s Minister of Foreign Affairs in trying to mediate the crisis. We saw again in 2012 that the Indonesian Minister of Foreign Affairs mediated the situation between the Philippines’ insistence in a joint statement against China regarding the Spratly’s. In this sense, I see Indonesia as not only a participative member, but she has the potential of becoming the regional leader with participative and transformational leadership styles.

That said, I do wish the best for all ASEAN member states. I wish the best for the development and success of Indonesia and Vietnam. For Indonesian people and Vietnamese people.

Well said, thank you.

A united ASEAN working ONLY for the interest of ASEAN, not for the individual interest of just one member country, exercising good leadership and not allowing external powers to divide and conquer ASEAN will go a long way to maintain peace in the region and to help to keep intruders away. Lets hope for that.
 
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Than what is Vietnam today, what kind of country Vietnam today? with just a tiny car production per-year (around 20.000 cars per-year), low level income per-capita, warmonger country in which just barely escaping themselves from chronic poverty at Sub-Saharan standard, communist at best, and with their VCP elites always licking their Chinese master assholes even after the rig mess last month




say the dreamer who has said if Vietnam has T-90 MBT's without any prove.

You're right. The most modern tank in the VPA's arsenal is the T-62. Tanks aren't like top secret aviation projects and the T-90 while respectable is far from cutting edge. Unless Vietnam only has a handful of T-90s, then it would be impossible hide hundreds of tanks like that delusional Carlosa guy is claiming. So it is a fair assumption that Vietnam only has T-62s and it seems the rest of the world concurs as there is not a single article about Vietnam purchasing or producing T-90s.

Even if Vietnam were to have T-90s in numbers that mattered (which they don't), what would be the purpose of hiding them? As I said before, it's not like they're a next gen weapons platform on the verge of mass production. ( And Vietnam isn't capable of producing anything other than t-shirts and fish anus sauce.)

Hiding hundreds of tanks would take up a lot of resources needlessly. So why hide them? If you're hiding them, then you aren't training with them. And if you aren't training with them, then they aren't of much use to the Vietnamese army.

Once again, Viets fail at logic but excel at self-delusion. :disagree:
 
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You're right. The most modern tank in the VPA's arsenal is the T-62. Tanks aren't like top secret aviation projects and the T-90 while respectable is far from cutting edge. Unless Vietnam only has a handful of T-90s, then it would be impossible hide hundreds of tanks like that delusional Carlosa guy is claiming. So it is a fair assumption that Vietnam only has T-62s and it seems the rest of the world concurs as there is not a single article about Vietnam purchasing or producing T-90s.

Even if Vietnam were to have T-90s in numbers that mattered (which they don't), what would be the purpose of hiding them? As I said before, it's not like they're a next gen weapons platform on the verge of mass production. ( And Vietnam isn't capable of producing anything other than t-shirts and fish anus sauce.)

Hiding hundreds of tanks would take up a lot of resources needlessly. So why hide them? If you're hiding them, then you aren't training with them. And if you aren't training with them, then they aren't of much use to the Vietnamese army.

Once again, Viets fail at logic but excel at self-delusion. :disagree:

He's Spanish, did you expect something of high IQ coming from him? Take a look at the status of his own country :lol:
 
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He's Spanish, did you expect something of high IQ coming from him? Take a look at the status of his own country :lol:

Ha ha, you wish that china were to have half the quality of life that Spain has. Spain is a developed country kid, unlike china which is still mainly a developing country with hundreds of millions of people living in poverty and not even talk about the pollution and the fact that can't even trust the food grown in China since most of the country is heavily contaminated with heavy metals, etc and chinese have no problem adulterating food in order to make an extra Yuan.

No wonder so many chinese migrants moved to Spain.

Enjoy life in China ! Cheers !!!1
 
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VN is not producing or can produce T90. This Spaniard has jungle fever. VN is a backwards fourth world country whose economic survival depends on China. these viets cancelled $140m for Asian games because they are poor. Delusional viets are happy when they think by getting two more 3rd gen kilo subs from Russia they can counter china. For every old sub they buy China can make ten modern subs.
Goddamn viets make me lmao. keep up the dreaming viets.

When did I say that VN produces the T-90?
 
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