India's Rafale punch: Deal with France on January 25

[SrNair]

?? Any fact supporting your specullation of FGFA cancellation.

FGFA was a big deal.Now they are looking for S400 because a fifth gen is not in near future .
S400 would cost 5 billion $ .

 

[knight11]

FGFA was a big deal.Now they are looking for S400 because a fifth gen is not in near future .
S400 would cost 5 billion $ .

S400 is the temporarary strategic move to give umbrella of nuclear thread, which is the hieghest priority of the Indian GOI, which can be seen with the AAD/PDV project.

FGFA is the best option we have to get the 5th Gen. fighter plane.

How many countries have 5th Gen in their inventory a potential threat. You will say China --- It will take anather decade for chinese to get those in substantial number, and their main agenda is their own security and to counter US/Japanese threat, not India.

Read my post before specullating Rafale is replacing MKI or FGFA

India's Rafael punch: Deal with France on January 25

 

[SrNair]

S400 is the temporarary strategic move to give umbrella of nuclear thread, which is the hieghest priority of the Indian GOI, which can be seen with the AAD/PDV project.

FGFA is the best option we have to get the 5th Gen. fighter plane.

How many countries have 5th Gen in their inventory a potential threat. You will say China --- It will take anather decade for chinese to get those in substantial number, and their main agenda is their own security and to counter US/Japanese threat, not India.

And if situation arise they will turn that against India.This deal will only complete after 2020 .And there is no mention about FGFA now .Russians cant invest their part ,they are in sanctions.

S400 is the temporarary strategic move to give umbrella of nuclear thread, which is the hieghest priority of the Indian GOI, which can be seen with the AAD/PDV project.

FGFA is the best option we have to get the 5th Gen. fighter plane.

How many countries have 5th Gen in their inventory a potential threat. You will say China --- It will take anather decade for chinese to get those in substantial number, and their main agenda is their own security and to counter US/Japanese threat, not India.

Read my post before specullating Rafale is replacing MKI or FGFA

India's Rafael punch: Deal with France on January 25

Where did I say that it will replace MKI?

 

[knight11]

And if situation arise they will turn that against India.This deal will only complete after 2020 .And there is no mention about FGFA now .Russians cant invest their part ,they are in sanctions.



Where did I say that it will replace MKI?

First FGFA is only for India. Russia could sell PAK FA to anyone else.

Second T-50 is only the technological demonstration on which both PAK FA and FGFA would be based.

Third FGFA is meant for air superiority, and not the DPSA for which raffale is comming, both aircraft would have diifferent role.

foruth S-400 is for strategic defence, because indian AAD/PDV and Desi green pine would take time.

Fifth the engine meant for FGFA and PAK FA is not ready yet

Sixth 5th Gen fighter does not means an aircraft rather aircraft is just a small part of a system, of the 5th Generation warfare is fought. 5th generation is the system not an aircraft.

Seventh -- Without any official statement everything is just specullation. Same as the scrapping of whole Rafale deal and no raffale is comming , and India is looking to buy f-18 fake news and article written by those people, who know shit about defence affairs.

 

[SrNair]

First FGFA is only for India. Russia could sell PAK FA to anyone else.

Second T-50 is only the technological demonstration on which both PAK FA and FGFA would be based.

Third FGFA is meant for air superiority, and not the DPSA for which raffale is comming, both aircraft would have diifferent role.

foruth S-400 is for strategic defence, because indian AAD/PDV and Desi green pine would take time.

Fifth the engine meant for FGFA and PAK FA is not ready yet

Sixth 5th Gen fighter does not means an aircraft rather aircraft is just a small part of a system, of the 5th Generation warfare is fought. 5th generation is the system not an aircraft.

Seventh -- Without any official statement everything is just specullation. Same as the scrapping of whole Rafale deal and no raffale is comming , and India is looking to buy f-18 fake news and article written by those people, who know shit about defence affairs.

FGFA is just a closed chapter for now.
I hopes AMCA will get great thrust.Russians are still lokking for a MKI arrangement not a JV.Something that our govt wont allow.

 

[shree835]

You guys were pretty happy with the Mirages 2000 during the Kargil War and with Dassault shifting production to the Rafale, France was willing to sell you the entire Mirage 2000 line. (This would have allowed you to produce the improved Mirage 2000-5..)
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Pretty stupid that you didn't go ahead at that time !

Can understand Mirages 2000 production line is closed...Is there any way after signing Rafale deal ...parallely we can get more Mirages 2005 from France..??...... I don how much I am correct technically on this.

 

[knight11]

FGFA is just a closed chapter for now.
I hopes AMCA will get great thrust.Russians are still lokking for a MKI arrangement not a JV.Something that our govt wont allow.

FGFA won't be ready till 2025-27. Ask @PARIKRAMA who have some confidential person who told him the latest deal between India - Russia, Reliance got the order for the Brahmos for PAKFA/FGFA

AMCA is the ADA proposal and its mainly to fly in the early stages of war, for the ground targets aka Strike role, not air superiority. And it might come in 2035, if India goes ahead with this project. It will take 15 years for that.

IAF never demanded Raffale, rather proposed Mirrage 2005(old ones) to fill the gap of the IAF -- Reason because Mig-29 is an excellent platform, but its poor readiness, and somewhat multirole capability is what it got after Mig29 UPG and for Mirrage 2000 India have only 36 Mirrage 2000 at the moment because 7-8 lost due to accident from 50 Mirrage 2000, which is Deep Strike in hostile environment. And rafale been the next avtaar of M2k fits the bill perfectly. Rafale would be mostly used for the strike mission and ground attack.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Fortunately if we get Rafale flyaway at $82Mn with mods and upgrades (israeli) and astra integration etc etc and add in some weapons package we are looking at say max $100mn per bird..

IF we look at original MMRCA the 126 birds should have been around $12.6 Bn (at 100 Mn $ flyaway) only but then the 50% offset/TOT with lead integrator HAL plus HAL production rate, quality control and cost of manhours (3 times to French Dassault merignac plant) and many other issues made the MMRCA a cropper..

The question to ask now is, if we are able to get flyaway loaded as described above around $100 Mn then why we are not pushing for Make in India more now and re do MMRCA also with newer terms , get a pvt sector company as integrator and still buy around $100 Mn average (on economies of scale). That is what DM MP is going to do...

The challenge for GOI in FGFA program which now will go JV route and will be delayed a bit due to PAKFA stage 2 not being ready (the engines the main heart of our FGFA program) implies FGFA induction probably from earlier 2022-25 timelines will move towards 2027-30 timelines. Reason being FGFA full production variant will take approx 7+ years as the bird is a derivative of PAKFA but a new design with newer tech integration meaning a rigorous regime of flight testing and if its just 3 prototypes, we are looking at a longer timeline for testing against say 10 prototypes testing multiple things..

This gap of next 12-15 years is the best time we have to get MMRCA done fully and Rafale under MII with a similar price tag fits perfectly with reasonable TOT. Many may not know that DPP 2016 stipulates that forces procuring will define what they want in offset TOT and where they want that offset not like before where any where investment can be made and shown as offset. This is why Rafale MII will be on after release of DPP 2016 so that offset and tech transfer may be said to aid directly our LCA directly. And with newer upgrades planned for Rafale F2R2 program the A2A role of Rafale gets strengthened further with new radar upgrades and 10%+ improvement in Engine thrust + MTOW improvements+ sensor fusion upgrades+ spectra improvement

I am confident that IAF may eventually get 189 rafales looking at such a price tag and if France seriously sets up the MII part and delivers on its words.. I see IN also jumping in with such a lucrative pricing and MII and get some 50-60 birds...

Eventually we may see 250+ Rafales in next 15-20 years. Post 2030 will be an era of 5th Gen FGFA stealth air superiority coming in with some 200+ birds.. and we should ensure we keep that time slot exclusive so that we can do mass production and invest heavily in FGFA then...

@FrenchPilot - I hope you like the pricing part here.. India France relationship is strong and if France delivers the goods at reasonable the same price as FrAF then i do hope India matches the France original plan for Rafale of 225 jets...

 

[knight11]

@SrNair
As the parikrama have just explained we should concentrate in Rafale for now, and FGFA program is not and should not be scrapped, because the core of the aircraft aka engine is not ready yet and we had already paid price for initial R&D for T-50.

So the stage have been set and the plan which I think is or should be Rafale + Super Sukhoi MKI upgrade + LCA MK1a for now. And eventually

1. Rafale -- replacing Jaguar and Mig27

2. FGFA --- Eventually replacing Super MKI

3. AMCA --- Eventually replacing Rafale

4. LCA MK2 --- Eventually replacing Mig-21, Mirrage 2000, Mig 27 -- for low tier

5. For Indian Navy Rafale-M, N-LCA for low tieer, N-AMCA eventually replacing Mig 29k

So in the end eventually FGFA, AMCA, and LCA-xx till all been replaced by AURA-xx

Few points

1. For FGFA -- Russia JV
2. For AMCA -- Help from West -- US(engine), Israel(electronics), Europe (Sensors), Japan (Composites, optronics)
3. For Aura -- Help from France
4. For Air defence --- S400 (Russia), Radar (Israel)

So its pretty balance between Western and Russia.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Report says, it will be 75M per plane instead of 105M. What one makes of this? Cheaper of costlier than earlier conditions?

@Ind4Ever @FrenchPilot

No one knows what is the real price is. All goes by previous deals and rumours. And don't worry it won't be around 75 Mil or even closer to that. It's gonna end up around 120-150 per plan. That's the reason deal is still off the hook

 

[ni8mare]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154291248167119

 

[Vergennes]

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Ind4Ever @The_Sidewinder @knight11 @SrNair

It is really off topic,but i have one question that i always wanted to ask,why Indians are calling the Rafale ; Rafael ?
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Any theory ?

 

[[Bregs]]

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Ind4Ever @The_Sidewinder @knight11 @SrNair

It is really off topic,but i have one question that i always wanted to ask,why Indians are calling the Rafale ; Rafael ?


-
Any theory ?

Nothing specific in particular, i feel every one pronouncing as per his convenience

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Ind4Ever @The_Sidewinder @knight11 @SrNair

It is really off topic,but i have one question that i always wanted to ask,why Indians are calling the Rafale ; Rafael ?


-
Any theory ?

Nothing specific in particular, i feel every one pronouncing as per his convenience

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Ind4Ever @The_Sidewinder @knight11 @SrNair

It is really off topic,but i have one question that i always wanted to ask,why Indians are calling the Rafale ; Rafael ?
-
Any theory ?

Rafael - Rafael Advanced Defense system Israel
India loves Israel..

Rafale - Dassault France
India loves France too

Similar spellings, similar friendship to the countries they belong to..
So gets interchanged..

 

[Techy]

@FrenchPilot May be they all are a big fan of The king of Clay "Rafael Nadal"

Another Similarity- Both have special relation to France ( One Air-force champion another Record French Open )