India’s Rafale fighter jets have no chance against China’s J-20: experts

[nahtanbob]

Those in the know-how do take J-20 seriously. This is one platform in which China have done its best, and continue to improve it.

Such arrogance is foolish.

Outside of China who knows the real state of the J-20 ? Military intel folks. Sorry they are not talking

 

[LeGenD]

B-2 has seen combat against lesser foes. Sure the F-22 is not sold to anyone. F-35, F-16, F-15, F/A-18 have all been exported to wide range of customers. No one doubts the American military industrial complexes's ability to build world class aircraft. No one is foolish to challenge the USAF.

What has China sold ? F-7 (MiG-21 clones) and JF-17s with Russian engines.
They are still reverse engineering Su-27, Su-30. They placed an order for Su-35 from Russia

Why you bringing USAF and American aircraft into this debate?

Stick to the topic please.

 

[nahtanbob]

Come on ... this is not even an argument at all. The F-22 or B-2 were never exported either ... does this mean they are not proven? If we are to assume an aircraft is effective only because it has been exported to countries, then that is not reasonable. The JF-17, which is a 4th generation fighter, has been shown to be effective by Pakistani pilots in combat ops (not training ops).

Why not ? the demand for 4th generation combat aircraft is strong. The cheapest ones are at $50-60 million
If you have a product how would you not sell it ?

 

[nahtanbob]

Why you bringing USAF and American aircraft into this debate?

Stick to the topic please.

@Figaro pointed out out F-22s are not exported. I pointed out there are numerous American aircraft that are exported.

 

[LeGenD]

Outside of China who knows the real state of the J-20 ? Military intel folks. Sorry they are not talking

Read this: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...hing-full-load-of-missiles-at-zhuhai-air-show

Those in the know-how are not stupid. They respect this bird.

 

[Figaro]

Those in the know-how do take J-20 seriously. This is one platform in which China have done its best, and continue to improve it.

Such arrogance is foolish.

The US completely dismissed the Japanese Zero before WW2 broke out ... as a result, the Japanese were unmatched in aerial combat for a full year after Pearl Harbor. The same occurred in the Vietnam War, when the USAF underestimated the capabilities of the Mig 17/21 and overestimated their own capabilities (specifically the F-4). It is a good thing to see the US finally take a system like the J-20 seriously ... otherwise I fear the same will happen in a future conflict.

@Figaro pointed out out F-22s are not exported

I was pointing this out because you claim that an aircraft has to be exported to be considered capable.

 

[Figaro]

B-2 has seen combat against lesser foes. Sure the F-22 is not sold to anyone. F-35, F-16, F-15, F/A-18 have all been exported to wide range of customers. No one doubts the American military industrial complexes's ability to build world class aircraft. No one is foolish to challenge the USAF.

What has China sold ? F-7 (MiG-21 clones) and JF-17s with Russian engines.
They are still reverse engineering Su-27, Su-30. They placed an order for Su-35 from Russia

The lesser foes you speak of are terrorist groups in Syria and Afghanistan. This is basically a training exercise for something like the B-2 or F-22 ... it is not a validation of their combat capability. The only war that somewhat comes close is the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, where I'm sure you can remember a thought to be undetectable F-117 was shot down by a unsophisticated Soviet S2A missile. The only two Chinese 4th gen fighters that have been available for export are the J-10 and the FC-1/JF-17. The former while advertised I don't think was ever pushed for export as much as the latter. Beyond a few placards, I don't think the Chinese aggressively tried to push the J-10, unlike the JF-17.

Regarding the Su-35, the reason why the Chinese bought them was simple ... for their TVC system (specifically its integration with FCS), to evaluate against the state of the art Russian technology (create an OpFor force), and to serve as a stop gap measure before the J-20. I am sure back door politics also played a role, since the purchase happened within a couple months of the S-400. If anything, we already know from Chinese sources that while the Su-35 is currently the most maneuverable aircraft in the PLAAF, its BVR capabilities far quite short of those of the J-10C and J-16.

 

[LeGenD]

The US completely dismissed the Japanese Zero before WW2 broke out ... as a result, the Japanese were unmatched in aerial combat for a full year after Pearl Harbor. The same occurred in the Vietnam War, when the USAF underestimated the capabilities of the Mig 17/21 and overestimated their own capabilities (specifically the F-4). It is a good thing to see the US finally take a system like the J-20 seriously ... otherwise I fear the same will happen in a future conflict.

I was pointing this out because you claim that an aircraft has to be exported to be considered capable.

Experience is a good teacher.

American military is professional, and will not underestimate a potential opponent. Talk to American professionals and you will have an idea. Even in American press, you can see how seriously they take China, to the point of overestimation at times.

Indians however....

Hollywood is ENTERTAINMENT to Americans; Bollywood is REALITY to Indians.

 

[Figaro]

@nahthanbob ... here is a first hand account of the Su-35 from a PLAAF officer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FLessCredibleDefence%252Fcomments%252Fajx4bx%252F

If anything, I really wish the USAF could acquire Su-35s or at least train against them. They are still very capable aircraft that should not be underestimated.

 

[pothead]

J20 is not a stealth Aircraft.

our MKI are more than capable of handling these smoke crafts.
There is a reason why China desperately sucks upto Russia for arms.

 

[LeGenD]

@nahthanbob ... here is a first hand account of the Su-35 from a PLAAF officer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FLessCredibleDefence%252Fcomments%252Fajx4bx%252F

If anything, I really wish the USAF could acquire Su-35s or at least train against them. They are still very capable aircraft that should not be underestimated.

Americans had much exposure to Russian military assets in Syria.

 

[Figaro]

Americans had much exposure to Russian military assets in Syria.

Exposure is not the same as getting your hands on one of them or even doing exercises against them.

 

[LeGenD]

Exposure is not the same as getting your hands on one of them or even doing exercises against them.

Of-course having an asset in your hands is really helpful but CONFLICT can teach you even more. Americans and Russians have operated for a long time in Syria by now; both have a measure of each other.

TBH, Russians do not hold a candle to American expertise in aviation. Even Russian Su-57 is underwhelming to Americans, if technology is a consideration.

 

[nahtanbob]

The US completely dismissed the Japanese Zero before WW2 broke out ... as a result, the Japanese were unmatched in aerial combat for a full year after Pearl Harbor. The same occurred in the Vietnam War, when the USAF underestimated the capabilities of the Mig 17/21 and overestimated their own capabilities (specifically the F-4). It is a good thing to see the US finally take a system like the J-20 seriously ... otherwise I fear the same will happen in a future conflict.

I was pointing this out because you claim that an aircraft has to be exported to be considered capable.

I am not saying US is perfect at evaluating foreign adversaries.

You have a country that does not have a record of exporting capable aircraft, a country that is closed society to foreigners, a country that is still purchasing foreign made aircraft.

The claims about the J-20 have to be taken with a grain of salt

 

[Figaro]

I am not saying US is perfect at evaluating foreign adversaries.

You have a country that does not have a record of exporting capable aircraft, a country that is closed society to foreigners, a country that is still purchasing foreign made aircraft.

The claims about the J-20 have to be taken with a grain of salt

The only claim is that the J-20 is in the same class of 5th generation stealth fighters as the F-22, F-35, or Su-57. If the Pentagon accepts this claim, then I do too.