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India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

And remember the competition did not only bust the USSR,m the USA came out of it limping but only because of the Dollar as a international exchange /currency

No, I was pointing towards something else -- See the cold war has ended but some of us on the periphery seem not to realize that
 
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With one exception here, US and USSR were not neighbors neither they fought three intense battles. Both countries spend a huge chunk of their respective budgets on defense. India has the advantage of huge economy, yes, but even Pakistan does not spend every single penny of her earnings on defense products. Reading a bit of post ww2 reveals that USSR had more than a dozen issues, topping them was a huge territory, it had a frenzy of making weapons and inducting almost everything in active service. This is not the case with Pakistan, there is a reason why we maintain a Minimum Deterrence policy.

Thats not true at all....

Minimum deterrance would have meant a sizeable nuclear arsenal sufficient to keep India at bay...

At the current rate of production, Pak will have the 5th largest stockpile of nukes. There is no need for Pak to be channeling so much money into nukes currently especially when the threshold for minimum deterrance was crossed way back...

I think what we see right now is an arms race where Pak is using its nuclear arsenal as a hedge against being politically sidelined....
Either way, valuable funds are being channeled from your economy into weapons that may never be used and will (hopefully) serve as nothing more than showpieces...
This does bear "some" similarities to the Cold war...
 
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So what does Pakistan have to do to make Cold Start, more of an after thought??

The military responses we know somethings about, but what else can Pakistan do to turn this disadvantage into an advantage for itself and a disadvantage for it's adversaries?
 
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So what does Pakistan have to do to make Cold Start, more of an after thought??

The military responses we know somethings about, but what else can Pakistan do to turn this disadvantage into an advantage for itself and a disadvantage for it's adversaries?

Create a NATO type pact with the Chinese that would prompt a military action when aggressed against Pakistan.....

Cold Start is built solely with Pakistan in mind....If China is brought into the equation, then India has to think twice before attacking as this would literally mean fighting with 2 nuclear armed countries, one that is part of the P5 with one of strongest militaries, funds and influence that outrank India...
Also, CS is meant to be implemented on the plains of Punjab and the deserts of Rajasthan.....IBG become ineffective over mountainous terrain...

By taking the war against India single handedly, Pakistan is fighting an enemy that outguns it in numbers and political influence (all relative to NOW)......
China can counterbalance this....

Basically Im suggesting that Pakistan become China's Israel

PS: I dont think this is realistically possible as this basically gives the west a reason to move into South Asia....
 
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Create a NATO type pact with the Chinese that would prompt a military action when aggressed against Pakistan.....

No, that's entirely unhelpful - Israel is a loser, only the depraved imagine that the poor Israeli is anything other than a shadow of the ideals he started out wanting to represent and all of it because it choose confrontation.

Why not engage in a relentless, steady low level but intense destabilization of the Indian political-economy? But that would require a decision and a political consensus that Pakistan simply cannot do

So what other way is there?
 
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Just keep the terrorists at bay and there will be no cold/hot start.

War is a waste of resources, and neither India nor Pakistan can afford wasting resources at this point of time. Especially Pakistan.
 
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No, that's entirely unhelpful - Israel is a loser, only the depraved imagine that the poor Israeli is anything other than a shadow of the ideals he started out wanting to represent and all of it because it choose confrontation.

Why not engage in a relentless, steady low level but intense destabilization of the Indian political-economy? But that would require a decision and a political consensus that Pakistan simply cannot do

So what other way is there?

Sir. stop thinking destructive. Start thinking progress. The mind is a beautiful thing and can do wonders to the world we share, only if we choose to.

As for the intent, I tried thinking hard on what could be done to divide and break India ..and I realized that everything that can be done is already being tried, and these efforts have been reaping the opposite result of what they intended harness.
 
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I agree to a certain extent....

It wasnt as much the capability as the lack of a political goal/will....there was no way to escalate the situation without full scale war being an imminent after effect...
Yes the goal was to punish Pakistan, but what is considered "punishment"? Where do we stop? The root of the problem "Kashmir" was not going dissapear and this would have created more problems than solutions...
So in essence, we were basically acting on emotions than brains....and I think in the end we made the right choice...

It was exactly the capability that was lacking, please dont treat me like another Indian troll because its quite obvious that India was not willing to accept the damage Pakistan would have done in return to Indian strikes. India certainly had the capability to knock out those targets in Muridke and the other one whose name i cant remember, but in return Pakistan would have retaliated and caused damage to the Indian side which was politically unacceptable. Your right India was acting more on their emotions as compared to their brains, but if India had the capability to severely punish Pakistan, Indian tanks and planes would have crossed the border.

Pakistan is not a country with immense breadth both an advantage and disadvantage....so it makes sense that mobilizing will be easier, but on a losing foot can be detrimental...

Its not like your Armoured Divisions are deployed all the way over to your border with Bangladesh, they are stationed quite close to the border with Pakistan. If it took them 3 weeks to reach their war time positions, i call that an utter failure.

Op Parakram was a great learning as it helped us understand the weak link in our offense ie. Mobilization...

But it was a failure, it failed to achieve its objectives and cost the lives of 800 soldiers. Although no doubt Indian Army's High Command learned from this debacle and has implemented changes to remedy this problem.

Calling it a failure would be simplistic since it has largely set the tone for future Indian strategy in case of war....
But yes "Punishing Pak" was not achieved from a military standpoint....though diplomatic achievements can be argued.

It was a failure from every angle you want to look at.

Actually I think this is the biggest misconception ever....

Its not a misconception, its the reality but if you want to close your eyes to the reality than its your fault. Doesn't matter how you want to turn a story around, FACTS ARE FACTS.

Yes, I agree that the people wanted blood, but 26/11 was able to achieve more than what we could have through military intervention...

Achieve what exactly? Has India been successful in coercing Pakistan to meet its demands? I dont think so

It highlighted the problem of terrorism that India faced and allowed India to garner world sympathy...
It not only allowed India to get LET and JUD on the blacklist, but also put the links between ISI and LET (You can argue against this) under the microscope...

LET is a terrorist group and that is why it has been banned by Pakistan for quite some time. But there is no proof that there is any link between the ISI and LET, although India made huge hue and cry about this but the world powers largely ignored this because India lacked the evidence to implicate the ISI. Did the UN sanction Pakistan or ISI? No because there is no proof that the State of Pakistan has any links with LET.

But the greatest achievement that 26/11 allowed India was to take the pressure off Kashmir...
It gave India a clean pass for any retaliation and enough propoganda tools to make any Kashmiri "violence" seem motivated through Pakistani links....
All in all, we came out looking as a country that held back from aggression even though having the conventional capability to deliver the blow...It put India in the club of the "victims" of terrorism that only allowed us to find other common causes to partner with nations...
I feel this was "goal achieved"

The issue of Kashmir is right there where it has always been. The Western powers in the past and even after Mumbai have always stayed away from this sensitive topic, so overall you achieved nothing regarding the status of Kashmir. In fact all you guys have done is make noises about China's involvement in Pakistan's side of the Kashmir, how successful is that going?

A plethora of evidence is available:
Cold start being the main motivator behind the "modernization" plans as you put it yourself (even though Indians deny the existance of any such doctrine)
Wikileaks has divulged that the PA/State has been quite Paranoid regarding CS even though the US feels that CS neither exists, nor the Indians have capability to execute as such
CS has been the main reason why PA has shyed away from deploying the much needed troops towards the WOT

Did you also look at the Wikileaks where US officials state that Cold Start is just a hoax and India does not has the capability to pull of something like that? Cold Start has blew up on the face of the Indians because they have failed to make this doctrine operational, they sure had big ambitious plans but failed to make them operational. While on the other hand your enemy embarked on a modernization plan to counter your CDS and has bought exactly the weapons it needs to tame the CDS, so overall this strategy has backfired for you :D.

Thats not true at all....

Minimum deterrance would have meant a sizeable nuclear arsenal sufficient to keep India at bay...

At the current rate of production, Pak will have the 5th largest stockpile of nukes. There is no need for Pak to be channeling so much money into nukes currently especially when the threshold for minimum deterrance was crossed way back...

I think what we see right now is an arms race where Pak is using its nuclear arsenal as a hedge against being politically sidelined....
Either way, valuable funds are being channeled from your economy into weapons that may never be used and will (hopefully) serve as nothing more than showpieces...
This does bear "some" similarities to the Cold war...

Pakistan has for a very long time kept its defence budget to 2-4% of its GDP, which is very much affordable.
 
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So what does Pakistan have to do to make Cold Start, more of an after thought??

The military responses we know somethings about, but what else can Pakistan do to turn this disadvantage into an advantage for itself and a disadvantage for it's adversaries?

Dont worry about it Sir, Cold Start Doctrine has failed to become fully operational because the Indian Army lacks the capabilities that are required to make this doctrine operational. Pakistan Army is buying exactly the hardware it needs to fully tame this doctrine. Pakistan Army is becoming more mobile as we are adding more armour and mechanized units to our arsenal along with strengthening our infantry to heavily punish the Indian IBG's. PA is now a fully network centric organization, meaning all of PA's assets are connected to a central grid giving them superior situational awareness. The recent synergy achieved between PA/PAF and PAF/PN will be extremely important to fully tame the Cold Start Doctrine and put it in Cold Storage. CDS is more for domestic consumption as compared to actually putting it on the battlefield.
 
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You say?

Capital, you say?

Let's be direct. The only event in which India is likely to enforce the so called "Cold start" would be a response to a terror attack inside India, after it has been established that it originated from Pakistan. So as long as Pakistan does not have any ill wishes for it's neighbor, we should be cool. The kind of resentment the doctrine is producing on the other side proves otherwise.
 
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An observation about Indians: When Nasr Missile was tested, everybody from Indian said.. there is no "cold-start" and now they are back defending it and basing their arguments on "international pressures" and "Indian plans" etc. How quickly they changed their attire is surprising.

Its a known fact that Indians are greatest liars of all times.
 
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No, that's entirely unhelpful - Israel is a loser, only the depraved imagine that the poor Israeli is anything other than a shadow of the ideals he started out wanting to represent and all of it because it choose confrontation.

See now you're thinking from an emotional standpoint...

Israel being one of the smallest entities in ME has managed to keep much larger neighbors and ill-wishers at bay through a simple combination of discipline and diplomacy....
It has one of the leanest most potent armies that can bloody more than just noses....They have managed to keep the UN at bay by aligning with America that has vetoed 126 Declarations against it...
Lastly it has partnered with the US to innovate not just in defence but healthcare, agriculture, space and has become a hotbed for technological prowess...

Calling the country "loser" is an insult to intelligence..
You can hate them, but you gotta respect them...

Pakistan should take lessons from Israel...there is no better lesson than one from an enemy (that is if you consider them one)

Anyways...its my opinion and serves no value in changing yours

Why not engage in a relentless, steady low level but intense destabilization of the Indian political-economy? But that would require a decision and a political consensus that Pakistan simply cannot do

Can you throw light on what methods other than "terrorism/supporting insurgency" could be used to destabilize the Indian Politico-economic structure?

I hope your intentions weren't sinister when you wrote the above

So what other way is there?

Build your economy/country/people until the day you can provide the world a reason to side with Pakistan....
 
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