India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

[Patriot]

Good article.

I am just thinking of one of the scenarios.

While Pakistan has developed Nasr to strike Indian army concentrations, what would Pakistan do and how would they react if Indian cold start actually consists of nothing but Su-30 strikes on Muridke and like locations, Indian naval attacks on Pakistani forward resources incl missile attacks.

What if no army is used at all?

They won't return.It will be one way flight for Su-30 or any other jet of your air force.

 

[deckingraj]

Dont worry about it Sir, Cold Start Doctrine has failed to become fully operational because the Indian Army lacks the capabilities that are required to make this doctrine operational. Pakistan Army is buying exactly the hardware it needs to fully tame this doctrine. Pakistan Army is becoming more mobile as we are adding more armour and mechanized units to our arsenal along with strengthening our infantry to heavily punish the Indian IBG's. PA is now a fully network centric organization, meaning all of PA's assets are connected to a central grid giving them superior situational awareness. The recent synergy achieved between PA/PAF and PAF/PN will be extremely important to fully tame the Cold Start Doctrine and put it in Cold Storage. CDS is more for domestic consumption as compared to actually putting it on the battlefield.

With due respect the bold part is contradictory....If we lack the capability right now then what are you buying for??? Anyhow we are also modernizing the way you are...though the kind of economy we have compared to yours there is a higher probability that we might get a little more then what we actually need....I must say all these news from Pakistan gives you an inclination that Cold Start might have some bite, no???

 

[SQ8]

I believe the misnomer of "cold start" is what got the press on our side huffing..
the military was aware of the Indian desire to change its doctrine.. but it also knew the logistical and operational hazards of such an operational endeavor.
The IBG's.. are nothing more than composite formations introduced by the US forces back in the early 90's..
In which an army unit such as the 101st airborne with all its assets would be attached with a dedicated wing to carry out its tasking.. A wing in the USAF comprising of Fighters, Bombers, associated support.. etc.

However.. for such a force to deploy from the Indian side would mean being able to secure and hold immediate supply lines in the aftermath of the attack.. will that be possible for such a rapidly moving force?
this entails an increase in infrastructure along the IBG's attack axis.. which is what this cold start hype was truly about.
The existing Indian logistic train works up to forward deployment locations for a certain load..
by increasing the capacity.. and adding more roads, rails.. the IBG doctrine allows for thrust into enemy territory with the comfort that reinforcement and supply is not too little too late.
The PA on the other hand.. has chosen a two fold strategy.. by accepting that holding territory will be impossible under such a scenario.. it has decided on using smaller groups to attack the flanks.. and slow down an advance.. optimistically cutting it off altogether from its supply lines..before such a thrust reaches critical points in our territory.(which is where weapons like the Nasr come in)
Rapid movement is a tad more difficult in the Plains of Punjab.. and the terrain favors dispersed operations.
The soft belly of Pakistan.. the cholistan and thar plains allow for rapid movement.. but have greater area that can be "given away" before the situation turns dire.
The air aspect of this entails that apart from the IBG's which would have dedicated strike groups for CAS and CAP's for the IA formations there will still be a IAF force dedicated to whittling the PAF down.
This is the crucial factor,since the PAF will not only be hard pressed to provide the PA with CAS (which will be critical in such an attack) but also fighting for its own survival.

The PN will not only be fighting for survival.. but fighting to protect Pakistan's sea lanes..
the western "backup" ports will be the point of defense.. and not Karachi.. which is considered a giveaway in terms of a supply port.
Both Gwadar and Ormara are naturally defensible harbors.. and sudden appearances of Chinese land based SSM's will not be a surprise.
A loss that has not been noticed was the Iranian's tacit nod prior to the Afghan war and increasing US interference that Pakistan may use its territory to transport fossil fuels and other supplies coming in from friendly nations(which have also dwindled in number).
Infact.. India's greatest edge is not going to be its fancy new weapons.. or IBG's etc..
But its diplomatic maneuvering to cut off Pakistan's traditional "backups" in conflict.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Dont worry about it Sir, Cold Start Doctrine has failed to become fully operational because the Indian Army lacks the capabilities that are required to make this doctrine operational. Pakistan Army is buying exactly the hardware it needs to fully tame this doctrine. Pakistan Army is becoming more mobile as we are adding more armour and mechanized units to our arsenal along with strengthening our infantry to heavily punish the Indian IBG's. PA is now a fully network centric organization, meaning all of PA's assets are connected to a central grid giving them superior situational awareness. The recent synergy achieved between PA/PAF and PAF/PN will be extremely important to fully tame the Cold Start Doctrine and put it in Cold Storage. CDS is more for domestic consumption as compared to actually putting it on the battlefield.

Little that I know on the issue is that the Doctrine and the wherewithal are in place and practised.

The loose ends are being tied up.

It is a good doctrine for a nuclear environment.

 

[Xeric]

It is a good doctrine for a nuclear environment.

Sure, not only it is guud but it is almost perfect to commit a nuclear suicide.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It is a good doctrine for a nuclear environment.

Sure, not only it is guud but it is almost perfect to commit a nuclear suicide.

It shows your vast knowledge of warfare in general and the wars and the compulsions of the subcontinent.

The last nuclear war was in Kargil, right?

 

[rockstarIN]

It was exactly the capability that was lacking, please dont treat me like another Indian troll because its quite obvious that India was not willing to accept the damage Pakistan would have done in return to Indian strikes. India certainly had the capability to knock out those targets in Muridke and the other one whose name i cant remember, but in return Pakistan would have retaliated and caused damage to the Indian side which was politically unacceptable. Your right India was acting more on their emotions as compared to their brains, but if India had the capability to severely punish Pakistan, Indian tanks and planes would have crossed the border. .

It is always political in India, it is not the worry of what Pakistan will do. If the political brass gives go ahead, whether they have resources or not, they will cross the border for sure.

 

[Xeric]

It shows your vast knowledge of warfare in general and the wars and the compulsions of the subcontinent.

The last nuclear war was in Kargil, right?

Instead of targeting my person why dont you debate the argument out?

Anywaz, you cited Kargil as an example, to me this clearly shows me your vast knowledge of warfare as you probably forgot following:

Kargil was not even close to the scale at which Cold Start would unfold

It took 'sometime' for the international community to understand that Kargil was not infact initiated my Mujahideens but the regular troops, thus hurting the idea of a full scale retaliation from the very outset

Kargil was not supposed to be a deliberate and open scale operation whereby the offender is mindful of not strucking that nerve of the enemy whereby the enemy might initiate a nuclear response without going into much deliberation, Cold Start on the other hand totally hinges upon this assumption that it would die at the point where there's a chance of crossing the enemy's nuclear threshold

Lastly, but most importantly, around Kargil your COAS has not opened his beak where he hinted upon the possibility of a Limited War, thus both the countries had no laid down procedure in case an event like Kargil unfolds.


Now let's see if you can respond without acting like any other countrymen of yours. You wear a Professional Tag, damn it!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Instead of targeting my person why dont you debate the argument out?

Anywaz, you cited Kargil as an example, to me this clearly shows me your vast knowledge of warfare as you probably forgot following:

Kargil was not even close to the scale at which Cold Start would unfold

Good that you think so.

On how Pakistan viewed the kargil War and the nuclear response even though you feel it was not great shakes, you may mull over this from a Pakistani newspaper:

The ‘deterrence’ thus achieved was abused in the Kargil Operation which set the world against Pakistan.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

and

First, at the height of the Kargil conflict Pakistan’s Foreign Secretary warned India that Islamabad could use “any weapon” to defend his country’s territorial integrity.

• Second, we have an account by Bruce Reidel, an aide to President Clinton, informing us that U.S. intelligence had uncovered “ disturbing evidence that the Pakistanis were preparing their nuclear arsenals for possible deployment ” during the Kargil conflict.
http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/993073535IB22-Chari-NuclearCBMs.pdf

Now if it was just another fun and games then why should Pakistan warn on the use of nuclear weapons?

As far as the Doctrine of Cold Start, it was not in vogue at that time.

The Doctrine was a fallout of the tardy mobilisation observed in Op Parikrama.

It took 'sometime' for the international community to understand that Kargil was not infact initiated my Mujahideens but the regular troops, thus hurting the idea of a full scale retaliation from the very outset

Kargil was not supposed to be a deliberate and open scale operation whereby the offender is mindful of not strucking that nerve of the enemy whereby the enemy might initiate a nuclear response without going into much deliberation, Cold Start on the other hand totally hinges upon this assumption that it would die at the point where there's a chance of crossing the enemy's nuclear threshold

Lastly, but most importantly, around Kargil your COAS has not opened his beak where he hinted upon the possibility of a Limited War, thus both the countries had no laid down procedure in case an event like Kargil unfolds.


Now let's see if you can respond without acting like any other countrymen of yours. You wear a Professional Tag, damn it!

Since I do have a professional tag, while I can accept unprofessional comments, yet comments meant to inflame and embitter the already hostile opinions and cause further bad blood, does upset me. Wars are not the answer. Having seen quite a few of them, I presume it equips me to realise the horrors that accompany war and the distress it causes thereafter.

Further, Pakistan is going through a horrid time. There are the Drones. Its territorial integrity and sovereignty is being violated at will, and without even caring for the population's sentiments. The sectarian violence has reached a zenith where Pakistanis are killing Pakistanis in the name of religion. Where law and order is merely in deep slumber in the statute books. Where the economy is in such dire straits that a Central Minister has to visit Saudi Arabia for assistance for Pakistan's national budget. Where people are so fed up that they are in dharna to wake up the Administration including the military to protect Pakistan's pride. In that scenario, it is time for calm nerves, not only within Pakistan, but also in the neighbourhood. Whipping passions with half baked ideas is hardly the way ahead. If one believes that India revels in Pakistan's discomfort, then that is being shortsighted, for an implosion in Pakistan would hardly be in India's interest.

Kargil, from the Pakistan point of view, may have been just another pinprick to India.

Now, see it from the Indian point of view and which one who analyse wars or plans war must take into consideration.

It is not Kargil that was important, it was the concept of Kashmir.

Let me give a Pakistani example to what is anguish of a symbolic issue:

Siachen Oh Siachen – Quaid Post

I do not call myself a nationalist, in-fact when anybody asks me i usually tell him that, “my roots are in my boots.” Still there is this sense of loss over a glaciated piece of land which i am not able to shrug off.

First a clarification for ultra nationalists. Siachen incursion by Indian army was unlike the Kargil incursion that Pakistan undertook. Around Kargil we have a line of control which was established in the Shimla Agreement, signed by both India and Pakistan. Around Siachen there was no such line. In-fact everything beyond the point NJ980420 was considered inhabitable and hence was left undefined by the boundary commissions. So if your history books tell you that Siachen a was part of Pakistan, you should burn them.

oday we have no control over Siachen glacier, Pakistani soldiers cannot even set foot on it, as Indian army is deployed along it over the Saltoro ridge. The Saltoro ridge runs along to the west of the glacier. The highest army post on Siachen was called Quaid Post which is now renamed as Bana Post in recognition of Subedar Major Bana Singh of Indian Army.

The first assault was headed by Pervez Musharraf (later President of Pakistan) and initially managed to capture a few high points before being beaten back. Later the same year, Pakistan lost at least one major Pakistani post, the “Quaid”, which came under Indian control as Bana Post, in recognition of Subedar Major Bana Singh who launched a daring daylight attack, codenamed “Operation Rajiv”, after climbing 1,500 ft (460 m) ice cliff. The only Param Vir Chakra (PVC) — the highest gallantry award of India — in the ongoing battle was awarded to then Naib Subedar Bana Singh who was instrumental in capturing the post. Bana Post is the highest battlefield post in the world today at a height of 22,143 feet (6,749 m) above sea level. The second assault in 1989 was also unsuccessful as the ground positions did not change. – From Wikipedia.

The loss of this military post somehow disturbs me deeply, the symbolism is inescapable. Maybe its time for us to recognize that we are morally and militarily defeated. In Indian military circles a unilateral withdrawal from Siachen was under discussion before the Kargil episode. I do not blame them for not trusting us now. We are sour losers with an unpredictable army.

The only solution is a political one where Indian army withdraws to the snout of the Siachen glacier at the head of Nubra valley. But that poses a military problem for the Indian Army, what will stop the Pakistan Army from capturing high posts and even attacking vulnerable Indian posts in Nubra valley. Maybe the Kargil misadventure has cost us the only political solution.

Siachen Oh Siachen.
ChaoticOne » Siachen Oh Siachen – Quaid Post

Now, what is Saichen. A mere wasteland to many.

But is it to this Pakistan officer who claims 'my roots are in my boots'?

Powerful emotions.

The same emotions that spurred Musharraf who wanted to restore his military reputation having lost the Qaid Post - the name of the Post itself should give the importance that Pakistan assigned to the Post!!

Likewise, Kashmir is powerful emotions for Indians.

A loss in Kashmir is as if the world has collapsed.

Therefore, Kargil touched the Indian nerve, but good sense prevailed is all I can say. Many Indians dispute that such good sense should not have prevailed and India should have gone gung ho, but then they are history. A good thing that such wild ones were not charting the Indian response. It is not the worry over the nuclear war that makes me say so, it is just that after a full scale war, nuclear or conventional, both countries would have become economically backward and it would take a long time to recover. And who would suffer? Not the politicians, but you and me or should I say the common man.

Our COAS had to say what the politicians had decided and they had decided that there was no need to escalate the war or cross the LC to do the same.

 

[Shinigami]

I believe the misnomer of "cold start" is what got the press on our side huffing..
the military was aware of the Indian desire to change its doctrine.. but it also knew the logistical and operational hazards of such an operational endeavor.
The IBG's.. are nothing more than composite formations introduced by the US forces back in the early 90's..
In which an army unit such as the 101st airborne with all its assets would be attached with a dedicated wing to carry out its tasking.. A wing in the USAF comprising of Fighters, Bombers, associated support.. etc.

However.. for such a force to deploy from the Indian side would mean being able to secure and hold immediate supply lines in the aftermath of the attack.. will that be possible for such a rapidly moving force?
this entails an increase in infrastructure along the IBG's attack axis.. which is what this cold start hype was truly about.
The existing Indian logistic train works up to forward deployment locations for a certain load..
by increasing the capacity.. and adding more roads, rails.. the IBG doctrine allows for thrust into enemy territory with the comfort that reinforcement and supply is not too little too late.
The PA on the other hand.. has chosen a two fold strategy.. by accepting that holding territory will be impossible under such a scenario.. it has decided on using smaller groups to attack the flanks.. and slow down an advance.. optimistically cutting it off altogether from its supply lines..before such a thrust reaches critical points in our territory.(which is where weapons like the Nasr come in)
Rapid movement is a tad more difficult in the Plains of Punjab.. and the terrain favors dispersed operations.
The soft belly of Pakistan.. the cholistan and thar plains allow for rapid movement.. but have greater area that can be "given away" before the situation turns dire.
The air aspect of this entails that apart from the IBG's which would have dedicated strike groups for CAS and CAP's for the IA formations there will still be a IAF force dedicated to whittling the PAF down.
This is the crucial factor,since the PAF will not only be hard pressed to provide the PA with CAS (which will be critical in such an attack) but also fighting for its own survival.

The PN will not only be fighting for survival.. but fighting to protect Pakistan's sea lanes..
the western "backup" ports will be the point of defense.. and not Karachi.. which is considered a giveaway in terms of a supply port.
Both Gwadar and Ormara are naturally defensible harbors.. and sudden appearances of Chinese land based SSM's will not be a surprise.
A loss that has not been noticed was the Iranian's tacit nod prior to the Afghan war and increasing US interference that Pakistan may use its territory to transport fossil fuels and other supplies coming in from friendly nations(which have also dwindled in number).
Infact.. India's greatest edge is not going to be its fancy new weapons.. or IBG's etc..
But its diplomatic maneuvering to cut off Pakistan's traditional "backups" in conflict.

from where did you get so much detailed info? are u involved in military or just a fan?

 

[blackops]

They won't return.It will be one way flight for Su-30 or any other jet of your air force.

and you are who to tell it personally am tired of these troll statements how can you even base something on 65 war thats long gone iaf is not what it was in 65 so keep your false ideas to yourself

 

[SQ8]

from where did you get so much detailed info? are u involved in military or just a fan?

I only know what I know..
my job, my resources.. and my interest.. are irrelevant.

 

[IceCold]

this kind of mentality and indeed no one can stop a war. Bring your own house in order rather then blaming Pakistan for whatever goes wrong in India.

 

[blackops]

also in order for to achive the goals of cold start india needs massive air lifting power that is what we are seeing these days transport aircrafts are bein brought in numbers for both ia and in huge numbers of helicopters are in pipelines this all indicates india is really thinking to cut in the amount of time required to get its equipments in war position which is the basic idea of cold start

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Here is what my Instructor has to say on the Cold Start

INDIA’S NEW COLD START WAR DOCTRINE STRATEGICALLY REVIEWED