India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

[Hellfire]

Is IAF ready for Cold War Strategy?

Within the present scope, yes.

 

[Hellfire]

First increase the IAF strength to 70 squ until then it is not even worth the value of paper it is presented

What gives you that magical figure of 70? Care to shed some light on the inputs about that?

 

[Hellfire]

Good Analysis; but a major flaw in your in thinking is that, it assumes that the opposing side is maintaining status quo

Thanks! But sorry, there is no flaw. Am not assuming that there is not going to be any reciprocal action. Sorry, but infact we are counting on a reciprocal action. The policy is based on multiple small attacking formations involved in high maneuver warfare in multiple sectors with stress on firepower rather than numbers.

Okay so your Armoured Formations move in, beat Pakistan's light mechanized/infantry units and capture a chunk of land. Now What? Your Armoured Formations need huge supply lines because they are big and need to be fed. Looking at the capabilities of the Indian Army, its going to be extremely hard for India to create secure supply lines.

Yes. Aim is to evict the incumbent PA forces and hold the small chunks of land. A penetration depth of 50-80 kms (which in any war will be a penetration depth achieved in case of a breach before the opposing forces regroup and reinforce for a counterattack) is what we aim for. Not more. This prevents any nutter for employing nukes too.

And the reference to the long lines of communication, I did say that was addressed by forward staging of stores and ammunition. So the observation is rendered redundant here. And we have capability for long supply lines. Every one has them.

What if PA decides that it has had enough and decides to encircle or outflank your Formations, or even worse outflank them and cut off their supply lines. Your Armoured Formations would not be able to hold much longer without the supplies coming in, thus its a very unlikely scenario that IA can hold on to the territory. When your battered, bruised and tired Armoured Formations go up against PA's fresh Armoured Formations head on, chances of a PA victory are higher as compared to IA. No matter how much mobilization India achieves, it can never beat Pakistan's mechanized units to the border.

Outflanking will be possible, but that is where the tier II troops will come into play. Also aim is not to beat your mech formations to the border, aim is to launch the offensives from the area the IA units are present, and hit on axis of own choosing. You can mass your troops all along, no problem, the axis of advances will be multiple. Again its redundant.

Excellent, but your analysis fails to take into account that PA has increased the number of its special forces. The number of SSGs have increased in the past decade from 3 battalions to a division, while the Air Force and Navy have their own special forces units. An Airborne drop inside Pakistan off SF forces is very unlikely because its going to be impossible for India to hide the effort as your helis or transport aircrafts would be lit up on Pakistan's radar screens long before. If in case the India manages to drop their SF, PA maintains an air assault brigade ready to be deployed within hours

On a lighter note, I have a severe doubt on your RADAR capability Well jokes apart, the issue of your SF increment is noted. But they are not into our calculation. When I quoted our SF being beefed up, it was with the aim to emphasize highly mobile teams working in tandem. No airdrop deep into your territory is envisaged. Even India has separate SF units of navy (MARCOS) and airforce (GARUDS). So a sizeable amount is held here and very difficult to see one on one face off of the SF units.

Excellent, but in the current scenario Pakistan holds an advantage over India in the artillery field. Pakistan has more SP Artillery as compared to India and our tube artillery is already set up, so pounding the invader is not going to be hard. India had a huge advantage in my opinion in the form of Smerch, the IA could batter PA's forces from stand off ranges without exposing their forces. But the induction of A100 in PA's inventory cancels out IA's advantage, IA would have to expose the Smerch against the A100 in order to use it effectively.

Arty is somewhere I agree that you have better positioning in terms of SP. India has very few M-46 Catapault versions in inventory (150 or so). But then, adequate resources in terms of firepower and ability to employ them in terms of ammunition (number of guided munitions) does allow us a slight edge. Overall the artillery is sufficient for now.

There is no evidence that the 3 Sister Services are talking to each other regarding this doctrine, its mainly an Army lead initiative and i find it hard to believe that the Navy and Air Force would let the Army take the glory.

Am glad you think that ways. Hope its a commonly shared view.

Your right, i should not have used the word impossible, but i will use the words 'extremely difficult'. There is no evidence to suggest that under a short and intense war, Pakistan will be unable to sustain its operations against India. If you make the claim that in a long term war India will prevail, i would agree with you but in a short term war, the balance of forces is roughly the same. India cannot use its advantages of numbers effectively if its envisioning a short war, contrary to what you say the logic dictates that the Indian Army does not has the capability to pull off something like this. This is why i am yet to see any real reorganization on the battlefield from the Indian side

Evidence for what? If PA is in a position to sustain itself in face of India, why base your nuclear doctrine in first strike basis?

The mere fact that PA can never in conventional terms, match up to Indian army, be it in short conflict or a long one, is a fact that only the common Pakistani citizen is unable to appreciate. The PA does appreciate what can happen.

The Cold Start is not based on numbers, its based on mobility and immense firepower. We have the resourcess to provide that. We have the numbers in terms of platforms and weapons. Short of nukes!

We have several alternatives and this is definitely one of them

This is the best alternative you have, on a broad front you have the commanding heights!

 

[Contrarian]

Hellfire, the objective of CS AFAIK is to inflict damage on PA's war fighting ability, not to capture land to be used as a bargaining chip. That was precisely the old doctrine. The new doctrine is about acting fast and aiming for PA and other targets of interest, not land.

PA also outclasses IA in Arty - and by a margin!

However, they are badly outmatched when it comes to tube arty. Smerch and Pinaka, in the numbers being inducted and the development path charted out outclasses PA, A-100 notwithstanding.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hellfire, the objective of CS AFAIK is to inflict damage on PA's war fighting ability, not to capture land to be used as a bargaining chip. That was precisely the old doctrine. The new doctrine is about acting fast and aiming for PA and other targets of interest, not land.

PA also outclasses IA in Arty - and by a margin!

However, they are badly outmatched when it comes to tube arty. Smerch and Pinaka, in the numbers being inducted and the development path charted out outclasses PA, A-100 notwithstanding.

We produce A-100s,produce the indegenous KRL-122mm with 40KM range,BM-21,SH-1.

I wonder how india outmatches us in tube arty.

Abt CW...... Its not possible.

 

[ramu]

C-17 Globemaster

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Cold start has been one of the biggest concerns of the pak millitary and the pak civilian govt. This argument has been protracted for awhile now and the pak millitary has carried out many an excercize to counter this threat. At this stage the pak millitary thinks that it is significant response capabilities to nullify the indian cold start strike.

They could have been right---if india had followed through with its millitary dictat---unknown to pak millitaryu establisment and civilian likewise----the indian millitary change its strategy and game plan right in mid-stride---.

The cold start doctrine---that initially constitued a millitary strike at requisite targets---took a shape and form of totally different nature that was not known to the pak millitary---which incidently is extremely rigid in its approach and analysis.

In the past few years, india had taken a route of economic growth and progress, where any kind of war or aggression by the uniformed sources would be devastating to its welfare, economically, socially as well as politically.

So right after they moved their troops towards pakistan's border---and had the full attention of the pak millitary----right in the middle of their full stride, they switched gears, turned their attention and operations towards other forms of warfare---which were more subversive in nature, had severe economic repurcussions for pakistan causing a massive unrest in the country, creating unrest in the masses through hyper-active news coming through controlled news media and possible bomb blasts---while the pak millitary was lost in searching the elusive indian millitary cold strike in the sindh desert and the punjab plains, the indian subversive cold start doctrine was operating at 110% of its strength in all venues of the pakistani community within months of its inception.

The goal to cripple pakistans capabilities, starting with economic slowdown bringing it to a standstill was possibly not the first goal---but creating unrest in the society through indiscriminate bombings of civilian targets through paid for vendors and outsourcing it to TTP ansd associates, brought the desired result at a much faster pace than expected.

Match it with lack luster reaction from the pak millitary establishment and general staff officers who had no clue of establishing a security ring around the millitary establishments let alone less critical targets, the cold start strike that the indians started with millitary formations within stone throw away from the pak border created the successful ruse that the indians have carried on for many a years.

Even to this day---the pak millitary is totally lost searching for clues to the whereabouts of the cold start and planning and arranging wargames and air combat and naval warfare games to get ready for something that is not coming in the form they expected it to.

And sadly and truly, as it does not come from the direction where they expected it to come from, they were mentally not prepared to counter it in an aggressive manner nor did they ever create a contingency plan to strike against it in a pro-active manner.

Actually and as a matter of fact, the pak millitary doesn't even know if the cold start is here or not yet----in order for them to know of its being---they would have to recognize its presence---and as they are still searching for that elusive monster, they would have no clue when, where and how to face it when they find it looking right at their faces.

As for the nay sayers, you just have to look at the results. India has already achieved its primary goals. Pakistan is a declared pariah state in the world community. Its economy is in shamble today. Terrorists can attack and strike any target of oppurtunity at their discretion, at a time and choice of their chosing. Its military headquarters attacked and military official held hostage, its major naval air base run over by the terrorists and all this time, the valiant pak military kept on watching hopelessly for salvation to appear from some where else.MastanKhan

 

[Riaz Mohammed]

@mastankhan

this is speculation at its best. While the possibility exists, i do not think our military or RAW is capable of pulling off such a stunt without leaving trail. Ever consider the possibility that "cold start" is still being formulated, and that India is not guilty of anything but inaction? My belief is that Pakistan faces the threats it faces today as a direct consequence of its twisted policies of supporting terror networks with the sole aim of destabilizing India.

I admit, that i too, am speculating.

 

[majesticpankaj]

I think it is more of case of giving the taste of their own medicine

 

[Contrarian]

Really mastan, and you are privy to all this while the GHQ with the considerable resources at their disposal is not.

Plus i really did not think you would believe that its India behind all the bombings and terrorism in Pakistan. I thought you understood that these are the people Pakistan trained & aided in numerous ways that are against Pakistan. Its Pakistan who has done this to herself, by radicalizing its society and whatnot. Not India.

 

[Vinod2070]

Really mastan, and you are privy to all this while the GHQ with the considerable resources at their disposal is not.

Plus i really did not think you would believe that its India behind all the bombings and terrorism in Pakistan. I thought you understood that these are the people Pakistan trained & aided in numerous ways that are against Pakistan. Its Pakistan who has done this to herself, by radicalizing its society and whatnot. Not India.

The TTP phenomenon became big after the Lal Masjid operation where supposedly (as per the rumors spread in the tribal areas) thousands of Pushtun girls were killed.

The LM operation became a necessity after China forced Musharraf's hand as many Chinese women were captured and held hostage by the LM goons and ninzas for being "prostitutes" (every second woman in Islamabad was a prostitute as per them).

The blowback just had to come if you think about it. For Al Qaeda, Pakistan is the country that it wants as it's base now. It believes it is within reach and can be done by softening them up.

The resistance to their designs has been lukewarm at best. It is not inconceivable that Jihadis may be running the government in a few years.

 

[Jango]

The TTP phenomenon became big after the Lal Masjid operation where supposedly (as per the rumors spread in the tribal areas) thousands of Pushtun girls were killed.

The LM operation became a necessity after China forced Musharraf's hand as many Chinese women were captured and held hostage by the LM goons and ninzas for being "prostitutes" (every second woman in Islamabad was a prostitute as per them).

The blowback just had to come if you think about it. For Al Qaeda, Pakistan is the country that it wants as it's base now. It believes it is within reach and can be done by softening them up.

The resistance to their designs has been lukewarm at best. It is not inconceivable that Jihadis may be running the government in a few years.

what the hell you goon!!!.....where did you get that from???

 

[wind]

What gives you that magical figure of 70? Care to shed some light on the inputs about that?

The person who was involved in this CS thing, he himself mentioned in his report that IAF need 70 sq to execute it. I am short of time, will provide the link and the person name in a while

 

[MastanKhan]

Really mastan, and you are privy to all this while the GHQ with the considerable resources at their disposal is not.


Sir,

You are giving too much credit to pak GHQ----they have no game----. The last few years have shown that they are worthless in research and analysis of current situation and projection of future conflict and terrorist strikes.

Pakistanis are very angry people---they think when they are angry----and they think with contempt of the opponent----that is not conducive to a pro-active approach---you cannot think straight when you are angry.

You will be surprised at their lack of understanding.

 

[Vinod2070]

what the hell you goon!!!.....where did you get that from???

Mind your language.

Ghazi alleged that during Musharraf's regime, "thousands of girls and boys" were killed with phosphorus bombs during a 2007 army operation against radical elements holed up in the Lal Masjid in Islamabad.

Pakistan court debates right to order treason case against Musharraf - Times Of India

Religious scholars of the country have been claiming that thousands of girl students of Jamia Hafsa seminary were killed in the military operation against the mosque.

Lal Masjid saga: 22 including Maulana Aziz indicted | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

At least check facts before shooting off the mouth.