India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

[praveen]

@Hellfire the pakistanis know when to expect cold start after all the pakistanis will know the cassius belli for the occurence of cold start.Hope the IA noter this

 

[asad71]

Shitshovelling is exactly what you are doing

I am not sure if you are not trying to sabotage the discussions? But I am really amazed that the Moderators allow such erratic response in a forum devoted to academic discussion. Bhrata Rakshak wouldn't.

 

[Jango]

I said sustained high intensity ..... not sustained operations. There is a difference. Please do understand the difference and appreciate what is being said.




Diplomatically no intervention possible for the first 2-3 days minimum. So the window is 48-72 hrs, which, if I may draw your attention, is the time frame determined for this policy to attain its objectives in.

for sustained high intensity you need to dedicate a big number of troops as compared to a short skirmish, hence a troop build up more than normal or peace time would alert us, it's not like the Indian military , which couldn't mobilize it's special forces during the Mumbai episode,could mobilize enough people for a full blown war in much shorter time than that?

 

[alimobin memon]

let's make a cold start

 

[Hellfire]

@mujib 43

Sir while you have got the essence right, for that is exactly what we are doing ie letting Pakistan fight our battles against our adversaries in their country, yet the whole thing being shrouded in religious colors was in poor taste. IA is and will always be a multicultural and pluralistic army and as such, religion has no place in war fighting for us.

And No Kautilya is not taught in Army!

@Praveen

Mujib43 got the essence right though his presentation may be distasteful.

If you look at the time when India was strong enough to really do something about Pakistan it was in late 80s and till mid-90s (after the 71 war), when a military solution/situation could be achieved to force a political decision. The same could not be done subsequently due to the lowered threshold of Pakistan's nuclear trigger being touted in all fora by them in case of a conflict with India.

While it is futile to speculate what exactly they will deploy and whether their warheads will work in case of a war, it was felt that the potential costs were high in both military terms and economic terms.

1999 and 2002 viz Op Vijay and Op Parakaram, lost opportunities in terms of military 'might have beens' but the biggest coup in real terms. It was the 99 fiasco that actually brought the spotlight on Pakistan (and unwittingly away from Kashmir) as a source for instability and the 9/11 attacks on US drove home this point, although the US were still too naive to accept things publicly.

2002 again saw an extended deployment of Indian forces and as a consequence, Pakistani forces. The costs were tremendous in terms of economy and the differences were vast in economies of the two nations. Further the ceasefire along LC was a brilliant move and the 'restraint' by Indian forces inspite of gross violations from across LC, ensures that PA has no chance of opening this front.

This allowed US to mount credible pressure on PA taking on Talibs and other affiliates in their own sanctuary and forced the ISI to partially remove support and to check the level of support even to Kashmiri groups. Now even PA is no resorting to Artillery fire to facilitate infilteration by militants into India. Result: while Indian economy thrived achieving high growth rates and there is slow but steady improvement in the living conditions of Indian society and the infilteration came down drastically, the opposite came about in Pakistan.

Today Pakistan is at a juncture where they cant ignore the terror tentacles that have strangled their social fabric. And while they fight in their own land, their economy suffers and the battle becomes desperate one, one for survival of the essence of Pakistan.

What better way to deal with Pakistan than this? The objectives have been achieved. USSR met its end this way, Pakistan will find it difficult to get out of this situation by an other way than fighting it out.

 

[Hellfire]

the pakistanis know when to expect cold start after all the pakistanis will know the cassius belli for the occurence of cold start.Hope the IA noter this

That is the best part. Insofar as of till date, India has never attacked inspite of gravest of provocation because of the lack of political will. Pakistan relies on this lack of will to get away. And in all fairness, they really may not have anything to do with say 26/11 as a government. Its in all probability low level op run by rogue elements in their set up. However, that being besides the point, they take into their planning the apparent lack of a strong political will and hence are unfazed.

The situation can be really surprising if some day they find that the political will has changed!!!

 

[Hellfire]

for sustained high intensity you need to dedicate a big number of troops as compared to a short skirmish, hence a troop build up more than normal or peace time would alert us

Am glad you think that ways. I do hope that your JCOSC also thinks the same way. You just didnt get the point.

The stress is on multi dimensional force deployment with stand off weapons ..... and use of heavily mechanised formations. You can traverse good amount of distance in surprisingly short time frame.

At any given time, some or the other IA formation is on maneuvers in deserts. So the amount of troops may not necessarily be needed to be built up. The Cold Start aims at launching offensives with whatever troops are already in area and building up with reinforcements as and when they reach the theater. There shall be no wait for augmentation of troops levels, instead airborne assets (and applicable seaborne assets) will be deployed to support the initial onslaught.

The formations which are deeper in own territory will assume war posturing and launch from their own original locations, this will cut down the launch time drastically. Build up in terms of stores and ammo is not needed as the same have been already staged.

Lastly, improvement in comm links viz roads is specifically meant to cut down the time taken to launch from own location.

it's not like the Indian military , which couldn't mobilize it's special forces during the Mumbai episode,could mobilize enough people for a full blown war in much shorter time than that?

SAG was asked for well late into the stand off. Initial assesment by Mumbai Police was of local gang war and NOT of a terrorist approach. So I dont get it what is the delay about?

IMO Just a simple case of goof up by local int officers of Mumbai Police.

Quoting a one off incident may be a funny idea as if we look at PNS Mehran attack, while the initial briefs by your Intelligence Inputs as also Op commanders suggested 10-20 men who attacked, only 04 were killed. Surprisingly the remaining are unaccounted for and their fates unknown. So I suggest that one should accept that int failure in localised operations does occur too and one really need not judge the whole by some.

 

[Jango]

Am glad you think that ways. I do hope that your JCOSC also thinks the same way. You just didnt get the point.

The stress is on multi dimensional force deployment with stand off weapons ..... and use of heavily mechanised formations. You can traverse good amount of distance in surprisingly short time frame.

At any given time, some or the other IA formation is on maneuvers in deserts. So the amount of troops may not necessarily be needed to be built up. The Cold Start aims at launching offensives with whatever troops are already in area and building up with reinforcements as and when they reach the theater. There shall be no wait for augmentation of troops levels, instead airborne assets (and applicable seaborne assets) will be deployed to support the initial onslaught.

The formations which are deeper in own territory will assume war posturing and launch from their own original locations, this will cut down the launch time drastically. Build up in terms of stores and ammo is not needed as the same have been already staged.

Lastly, improvement in comm links viz roads is specifically meant to cut down the time taken to launch from own location.



SAG was asked for well late into the stand off. Initial assesment by Mumbai Police was of local gang war and NOT of a terrorist approach. So I dont get it what is the delay about?

IMO Just a simple case of goof up by local int officers of Mumbai Police.

Quoting a one off incident may be a funny idea as if we look at PNS Mehran attack, while the initial briefs by your Intelligence Inputs as also Op commanders suggested 10-20 men who attacked, only 04 were killed. Surprisingly the remaining are unaccounted for and their fates unknown. So I suggest that one should accept that int failure in localised operations does occur too and one really need not judge the whole by some.

you have taken a complete turnaround!!....before you said high intensity now you are saying that the border formations and strike formations will move in regardless of the position of the reinforcements. when the reinforcements come you will keep on the charge. you are thinking only from the Indian perspective. Pakistan army will also then mobilize troops as reinforcements and all will be even steven.

 

[Hellfire]

you have taken a complete turnaround!!

There is no turn around. Again I reiterate: Under Cold Start, the existing formations all along the IB (and there are quite a few) will commence operations upon go ahead. The formations away from the border will in the same moment be moving towards the IB to commence their own operations in support/independant of the forward echelons. Thus, the time taken for formations to mate up and regroup for commencement of operation is cut down by two ways: a. The mating time is done away with. There is no requirement to augment the troops existing in forward echelons with numbers. Instead they shall be augmented with air/naval/mechanized assets as applicable. b. The time taken by formations placed distant from IB has also been brought down as the Logistics need not be concentrated and carted off to forward locations due to prepositioning. Thus the time taken to move from own location to forward posturing is significantly reduced from days to just a couple of hours.

However to further simplify. The first layer of troops, who even in peace time are adjacent to IB, will strike upon go ahead and the second layer, which is away, will in the meanwhile move up and reach the IB to commence their own ops.

Previously it was the thought process to wait for this second layer to beef up the numbers in first layer and then move which was time consuming. Additionally, the movement of the second layer was also slow. The thrust has been to launch the first layer and at the same time the second layer to move too and hit asap without taking time to regroup/build up. Hopefully clear?

....before you said high intensity now you are saying that the border formations and strike formations will move in regardless of the position of the reinforcements. when the reinforcements come you will keep on the charge. you are thinking only from the Indian perspective. Pakistan army will also then mobilize troops as reinforcements and all will be even steven

I hope you appreciate what has been posted in my preceeding para. There shall be no 'reinforcing' the forward echelons by any 'strkie formations' before commencement of operations. Period. The battle is based on instead of strike corps, battle groups supported three dimensionally.

 

[MilSpec]

More than the operational effectiveness of cold start doctrine, the threat perception is huge for pakistan. If India starts developing IBG's like the Corp head quarters it has near its western border reducing its mobilization time, pakisitan will have to maintain wartime locations around the year. Indian economy will absorb this cost by a fraction of its GDP but it will be very costly for Pakistan to do the same with its economy in doldrums.

Future Developments to Enhance Integrated Battle Groups:

• What we need is to have more operation forward air bases in Western front as support colums to IBG's. Dedicated Air Interdiction and multirole aircrafts in Rajasthan and Punjab sectors.

• The concept of IBG must involve a large amount of CAS Fighters. We need to Deploy LCH in high numbers to compliment our Mobile Armour Columns

• Higher density of heavy 155 mm artillery guns and Pinaka batteries in Poonch and Kargil sector

• We need to upgrade BMP1/2 APC's and induct new Minesweepers

• Every Defensive Position in Rajasthan and Punjab sector should be armed with Anti Tank Helos Helina and Namica Anti Tank vehicle.

• Strategic Nuclear command should establish an unbeatable Nuclear Triad, and the AMB shield should be first made effective on the western front.

Initiation of the Cold start doctrine will make pakistan to respond in its own restructuring causing huge expenditure to an already overbearing Military. Eventually when a civilian government does come to real power.. military will be curtailed.. effectively bringing peace to the region

 

[Jango]

There is no turn around. Again I reiterate: Under Cold Start, the existing formations all along the IB (and there are quite a few) will commence operations upon go ahead. The formations away from the border will in the same moment be moving towards the IB to commence their own operations in support/independant of the forward echelons. Thus, the time taken for formations to mate up and regroup for commencement of operation is cut down by two ways: a. The mating time is done away with. There is no requirement to augment the troops existing in forward echelons with numbers. Instead they shall be augmented with air/naval/mechanized assets as applicable. b. The time taken by formations placed distant from IB has also been brought down as the Logistics need not be concentrated and carted off to forward locations due to prepositioning. Thus the time taken to move from own location to forward posturing is significantly reduced from days to just a couple of hours.

However to further simplify. The first layer of troops, who even in peace time are adjacent to IB, will strike upon go ahead and the second layer, which is away, will in the meanwhile move up and reach the IB to commence their own ops.

Previously it was the thought process to wait for this second layer to beef up the numbers in first layer and then move which was time consuming. Additionally, the movement of the second layer was also slow. The thrust has been to launch the first layer and at the same time the second layer to move too and hit asap without taking time to regroup/build up. Hopefully clear?



I hope you appreciate what has been posted in my preceeding para. There shall be no 'reinforcing' the forward echelons by any 'strkie formations' before commencement of operations. Period. The battle is based on instead of strike corps, battle groups supported three dimensionally.

i perfectly understand the point you are trying to make. but my point is that Pakistan has the response for the first strike, but as you are saying that first strike will be backed up by the second wave then more casualties could be inflicted, but you are missing the factor that by the time more troops come in for the Indians , Pakistani formations will also move in to supplement the front lines.

unless the Pakistanis are completely ignorant of the cold start which i think is not possible.

 

[praveen]

i perfectly understand the point you are trying to make. but my point is that Pakistan has the response for the first strike, but as you are saying that first strike will be backed up by the second wave then more casualties could be inflicted, but you are missing the factor that by the time more troops come in for the Indians , Pakistani formations will also move in to supplement the front lines.

unless the Pakistanis are completely ignorant of the cold start which i think is not possible.

How will pakistanis know the exact point of incursion of the IBG?
@hellfire what about those canals

 

[Zarvan]

How will pakistanis know the exact point of incursion of the IBG?
@hellfire what about those canals

show guts and come openly for war

 

[kingdurgaking]

show guts and come openly for war

I think we are telling you the same... close all the terror camps and face us

 

[Jango]

How will pakistanis know the exact point of incursion of the IBG?
@hellfire what about those canals

are you in any way aware of the capabilities of the armed forces of both india and pakistan both