India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

[deckingraj]

Firstly if IBGs come rolling it IS a 'full-fledge' war.

Dude, it will be a full-fledge war depending upon the Pakistan's response....That's why the time period is just 2-3 days...You just don't go ga-ga right from first minute....The first and foremost priority of Paksitan would be to stop the IBG's and then go about punishing India for the so called misadventure...In other words the idea is by that time we would have got our boots on Pakistani soil in small pockets and international community will stop actions...

Secondly (and for bloody heaven's sake) what part of the 'CSD devised so as to capture max amount of land before the international community intervenes' do you not understand????It is made for that one bloody purpose! The international community will intervene. The question is what is to be done before that happens.

What??? What make you believe that i don't understand that part???

No. The objective is to stop CSD from ever allowing the IA to think of a misadventure by warranting MAD......Ill simplify as much as I can: IA wants to avoid the nuclear threshold so it comes up with CSD. PA says no, no, no.....you bring IBGs we use NASR and then its your decision on going MAD. So basically the bloody purpose of CSD is defeated when instead of avoiding MAD it is in fact warranting MAD, as per your take of the scenario. But if IA still decides to go ahead then one would take one's chances with a tac nuke rather than a strategic nuke. And btw any sane man would tell you that a tac nuke will not be responded by a strategic strike. You guys are acting like kids flailing that nuclear policy of yours in the air and taking everything written in it as strict written principle. I doubt the IA is stupid enough to reply to a tac nuke with a strategic nuke. What would the IA rather loose a couple of armored columns occupying foreign territory or millions of its people??????

Fair comment...However before NASR were't you guys jumping that the moment IBG's put the shoe on Pakistan soil we will go nuclear??? Let the indians have their share of stupidity this time....Anyways just kidding ....


Look dude calm down a bit and read carefully what i have written...For your convenience i will post it again...

To me the objective is - defeat CSD without entering into MAD, no??? However aren't you assuming that India's response will be to retreat and not raise the stakes by Nuking Pak even though as per her doctorine nuke attack on India and her forces will be responded with Nukes???

Read the bolded part...Aren't you assuming what would be India's response??? Wasn't this the same flaw that everyone was pointing in CSD before NASR??? The way you are accusing us of acting like Kids fliailing our nuclear doctorine don't you think the same way you are acting??? If i get you right aren't you saying that using a tactical nuke is no big deal???? With due respect isn't this juvenile??? Look i am stating what our nuclear doctorine says....The way your doctorine say's that if we loose a major chunk of land - PAF get defeated - Navy blockade blah blah we will go nuclear...the same way our doctorine do say that if nukes are used against India or her troops we will retaliate with nukes....Now by using NARS you are crosssing our nuclear threshhold(as per the doctorine), no??? How are you assuming that even if you have crossed our nuclear threshold we will not go nuclear??? That's where i said if IBG's did enter Pak, pak's best choice would be to either have a conventional war or go all out nuclear....i mean think for a second Indian IBG's using a NASR like missile....What should be Pakistan response??? Annihiliate India or go to International community for intervention??? Sane mind there can also say why to loose millions for "couple of armored columns", no????

No. The objective is to stop CSD from ever allowing the IA to think of a misadventure by warranting MAD

This is deterrant....Once the IBG's are on Pak soil the objective is what i wrote...Don't you think so??

 

[RazorMC]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From Last 3 pages we have no discussion on cold-start but everything beside it....Let's get back to what we were discussing, shall we???

You're right about that, deckingraj.

The first and foremost priority of Paksitan would be to stop the IBG's and then go about punishing India for the so called misadventure

Don't know about that. Pak Fauj may employ a completely different tactic. For one, we could prepare smaller units against Indian armour while focus on an offensive in other parts.

But has the CSD been agreed upon by all three wings of India's military ?

 

[RazorMC]

Here are some links just for additional reading:

Link 1 (SAAG)
Link 2
Link 3

 

[Patriot]

The fact is India can start a war but it can't control it.Once war is started then it will only go downhill from there.

 

[deckingraj]

Don't know about that. Pak Fauj may employ a completely different tactic. For one, we could prepare smaller units against Indian armour while focus on an offensive in other parts.

You are absolutely right...what would be the tactics of PA only PA would know...Though it is hard for me to believe that PA would go for punitive action without completely pushing back the IBG's especially given the numerical superiority that IA enjoys over their counterparts...Anyways don't want to get too much into speculation

But has the CSD been agreed upon by all three wings of India's military ?

To the best of my knowledge, Yes ....Though how seamless their operations are is debatable...

 

[deckingraj]

The fact is India can start a war but it can't control it.Once war is started then it will only go downhill from there.

Well you are right to some extent.. In fact this is the biggest criticism of CSD i.e. relying heavily on International Power breakers...

 

[Rafi]

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy. Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Moltke

This was true then, it is true now.

IMO Nasr is an insurance policy, Azm-E-Nau (New Resolve) Exercises have proven that the PA's Conventional Deterrence Capability is considerable, and that they have the tactical mobility to respond to the threat.

Some interesting information on Pakistan Army's Netcentric warfare validation during the recent Ex. Azm-e-nau III by Brig Tughral Yamin. I thought this is more concrete than most of the other information available on what PA is working out in terms of increasing netcentric operational capability. The fact that PA is relying on net-centricity to counter the envisages Cold Start doctrine speaks to an indication that NC is on the road to get adopted quickly and across the force (obviously resource constraints apply):

One idea that was tested during the exercise was the applicability of the network-centric approach in the joint Army and Air force operations. The network-centric as opposed to platform-centric operation aims to connect all sensors to with the shooter thus reducing his OODA (Orient, Observe, Decide, and Act) loop. Network-centricity provides a Common Operating Picture (COP) to all stakeholders and facilitates its decision making process. If indeed the Indians are planning to animate a Cold Start type scenario, a net-enabled force would be able to react in a timely manner by launching appropriate responses to reduce or eliminate any advantages that might be sought through reducing the time of operations. All three services of the Armed Forces are rapidly transforming into a network enabled force.

Ex Azm-e-Nau III was the battle lab to test a number of ideas and concepts to counter the so called Cold Start offensive doctrine. Network centric operation was one concept, which emerged as a doable enterprise. It reduced the fog of war by allowing all tiers of the command from the highest to lowest field commander to look into the evolving battle picture through across the board connectivity using all means of Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) assets i.e. UAVs, aerial imagery and early warning (EW). The real time availability of information not only reduced the chance of surprise through any proactive maneuvers, it also enhanced the decision making capability of commanders at all levels. 'Cold Start' has met it nemesis!

For more details, look up "Cold Start & Net Centric Operations" in the March issue of Hilal Magazine.

 

[Rafi]

The Company employs considerable time and resources in monitoring the enemy ORBAT - and the strategic posture of their formations - this would ensure the minimum amount of surprise, for said formations/forces.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Don't know about that. Pak Fauj may employ a completely different tactic. For one, we could prepare smaller units against Indian armour while focus on an offensive in other parts.

PA's strategy appears to be very clear, crush the IBG's that cross the border and inflict as much damage they can on the IA. The tactics PA would use are up for discussions but looking at the recent manoeuvres practiced by PA and the hardware being acquired sends out a clear message. Punish the crossing IBG's with our defenders/stand off weapons and engage them when they are exhausted and when we know exactly where they are. Cut of their supply lines and try to either flank or encircle them. If their supply lines have been cut, it would be extremely hard for them to keep fighting and hold the territory they have captured. Their worse nightmare would be if the PA's Armour Columns manage to encircle them, would be very hard for them to break through.

But has the CSD been agreed upon by all three wings of India's military ?[/SIZE][/FONT]

Not sure, CSD is an Army led initiative and it would be interesting to see how the other two wings react to this. There is no evidence that the three services are talking to each other because the two services also want their glory.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thank you.

Just as the Blauchis and Shias of Northern Areas?

sir with due respect dont talk nonsense

50% of my family is shia and it is a big family and no one I know has any ill feeling which you are referring to I have relations in Nothern Area Shias too &they don’t hate Pakistan as you are claiming.
On the contrary there is enough video and photo evidence of all the protests and marches of the People of Srinagar which clearly shows how they feel about Indian occupation forces.

Not sure why you decided that Shia hate Pakistan particularly the ones from NA, in fact I have found them far more patriotic than the people of the tribal areas and please spare me the Kargil story enough said already mostly by the people who have never been to the place or met the people involved. My 2nd cousin is currently deployed in Siachin he is commanding a company which is deployed above 20K feet if I remember correctly and also he happens to be a shia. I assure you that he is very comfortable being a Pakistani just like his civilian relatives are. If this is not enough then I will communicate your concerns to him I am sure he is respond in kind and show the same concern for the Dalits & Muslims of Gujrat who were burnt alive in their homes by fanatic Hindu mobs.

and please spare your tears for Shia's that the second time you have tried to bring in faith in this thread which is totally uncalled for and irrelevant, I would have let it pass if it was from someone else but you are a respected member so please don’t disappoint me.

Actually I think every patriot Indian (like yourself) should hate Shias, even more than TTP or Taliban have that hatred for Shias, do you know why? Because the Pakistan’s founder Jinnah was a shia, yes same Jinnah that is portrayed as a demon in the psyche of the biggest democracy of the world because he used a democratic route to win the right of a separate homeland for Muslim nation.

Re Baloch hate, lets leave it for another thread, don’t use the example of two tribes on the whole Baluchistan which is 50% Pashton and 25% Punjabi, Sindhi, Makrani, Seraiqi and Hazara, they are as much Pakistani as the rest of the Pakistanis are and they despise the BLA terrorism.

At some time I will share the story of Caption Haider Ali Magsi with you, you might want to look up the Magsi tribe, it’s a proud Balochi tribe with honour and pride as tradition for centuries it much more celebrated than few Maris and Bugti chieftains that are being fed by Indian consulates in Afghanistan. So I was talking about Haider, like his father this brave Baloch defended his country and gave his life in Siachin in 1998.


As far as the thread itself is concerned I have followed it from start and I don’t think I can add anything more. About 80% or more is wasted on non issues and irrelevant talk like Kashmir, Kargil, Shia, Balochistan and Bangladesh. There are some good posts nonetheless from both Indian (like you) & Pakistani members so I have nothing more to say other than this which is more or less the repetition.

Indian stated goal is to rapidly gain territory and degrade the Pakistani defence forces on the pretext of a terrorist incident like Mombai and seek the destruction or occupation of Pakistani strategic locations with the secondary goal of destruction of alleged terrorist camps without allowing Pakistan to escalate this war into a nuclear breakout and accomplish this before the international community comes into action and then talk from the position of strength. This is how Indian side “hopes” and
As you know the war itself is a fluid and unpredictable in nature and guessing what the enemy will think or do is just not 100% sure. The possible use of tactical nukes by Pakistan pretty much nullifies the essence of this doctrine because the premise is to achieve the goal without breaking the nuclear threshold. Actually our air force and artillery is very much capable of delaying the IBGs for enough time for our counter strike forces to engage if they have been outmanoeuvred initially (yes our air defence will take care of your IAF). My Indian friends then boast about escalating it to an all out strategic nuclear reprisal then I dare say why the foreplay of CSD, why not nuke the crap out of each other be remembered in the history for slaughtering over a billion people of each other by the other nations? Hmm?

 

[Rafi]

I am a proud Pakistani Shia, we are Pakistani first, second and third.

 

[Bossman]

and 1/3 of my family are Baluchs, 1/3 Punjabis and 1/3 Mohajirs but foremost we are Pakistanis. We are still working on the Pushtun part. Problem with Indians is that they start believing their own propaganda.

 

[Avatar]

Where did this "Tactical nuke" theory even come from ? When was the last time a tactical nuke was used ?
What would Pakistan do if India had "tactically nuked" the so called out of control terrorists in Kargil ?

This sounds like Pakistanis are saying, "If you cross our border for whatsoever reason we will nuke you. But we will use a small nuke so that you do not have a good reason to nuke us back, because small nuke is not as bad as big nuke. After that if you nuke us we're gonna erase the entire subcontinent and all of us will die of the fallout. So let us do anything we want and let our misguided citizens terrorize you and kill your innocents day and night." (epiclolz)

 

[Rafi]

Where did this "Tactical nuke" theory even come from ? When was the last time a tactical nuke was used ?
What would Pakistan do if India had "tactically nuked" the so called out of control terrorists in Kargil ?

This sounds like Pakistanis are saying, "If you cross our border for whatsoever reason we will nuke you. But we will use a small nuke so that you do not have a good reason to nuke us back, because small nuke is not as bad as big nuke. After that if you nuke us we're gonna erase the entire subcontinent and all of us will die of the fallout. So let us do anything we want and let our misguided citizens terrorize you and kill your innocents day and night." (epiclolz)

A tactical nuke is a perfect weapon for an armored column in a desert type of environment, it is an insurance policy - because PA has enough conventional deterrence.

This exercise Azm-e-Nau (New Resolve) validated conventional response to cold start type attack.

 

[Pak_Sher]

The bottom line, in case of any war, India will be economically be impacted more than Pakistan. If the the Bombay and other Stock Exchanges has direct hits of BVR, RAAD and Babur Cruise Missiles and are closed down for 30 days, that will be enough to collapse the Indian economy. Though Pakistan will be impacted economically, but the Indian losses in the hundreds and billions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ssssss.