Indian Ocean Peaceful Geo-Political Pivot Or Contentious Source of Hedging

[Tshering22]

If you think you know everything, in your next post bring the statistics as posted by Ticker or just move on instead of just writing english because you know to.

Lets see if you can do that. If you can't just shut up please and dont waste the bandwidth here.

What statistics have you been talking about? Those numbers I could just change and put what I fancy based on knowing the total armada of Indian army. Any 5 year old can do that. Don't talk about things you don't know. You're really ruining what's left of your intellectual image here.

 

[Nassr]

What statistics have you been talking about? Those numbers I could just change and put what I fancy based on knowing the total armada of Indian army. Any 5 year old can do that. Don't talk about things you don't know. You're really ruining what's left of your intellectual image here.

Mr. Tshering22,
Your responses have been general in nature and mostly rhetorical. Please bring in facts about your armed forces to counter what Ticker posted. By saying that you know better because you have relations in Indian Army does not serve the purpose sir. Let's have a healthy discussion instead of saying the same things again and again. Thank you.

 

[Tinu]

The best thing that happened after post Soviet withdrawal American impositions of sanctions on Pakistan was efforts by Pak Army in Self Sustenance and generation of alternative support. Chinese readily came forward and helped Pakistan in this regard. At this stage the Americans think that by pressurizing the Army in Pakistan they will be able to attain their objectives - they'd not be able to do that. I think, a compromise would be reached in this regard as many interests of both countries collude.

 

[Tshering22]

Mr. Tshering22,
Your responses have been general in nature and mostly rhetorical. Please bring in facts about your armed forces to counter what Ticker posted. By saying that you know better because you have relations in Indian Army does not serve the purpose sir. Let's have a healthy discussion instead of saying the same things again and again. Thank you.

Dear man, can you show me the link of that statistic you posted here? Do you really think that such a serious issue would be displayed in public and not come to know by the top Army brass? NO ONE knows this properly. Not even our runaway media. I can never get the true facts and neither can anybody other than some wild fancy work by a few analysts. That's the reason why military is half the time secretive about all such details.

Do you actually think the real numbers would be lying around? I think not.

 

[Tshering22]

The best thing that happened after post Soviet withdrawal American impositions of sanctions on Pakistan was efforts by Pak Army in Self Sustenance and generation of alternative support. Chinese readily came forward and helped Pakistan in this regard. At this stage the Americans think that by pressurizing the Army in Pakistan they will be able to attain their objectives - they'd not be able to do that. I think, a compromise would be reached in this regard as many interests of both countries collude.

You need to read the Art of War to know the CCP's actions and their reasons to so darlingly assist you. You are simply a safe highway for them to pass through straight into middle east for their goods. You are a lane that connects them to rest of Asia and open an alternative route to Malacca Straits and create an export and supply line. Compared to what you are getting right now, their plans are massive. And you're just in the same juncture what you and we were in cold war. Only this time, you're with a different supplier/ally than USA last time.

A nation such as yours engaged in multiple wars, gives China the perfect opportunity to put its creations to test. The more you use these weapons against say (for example), rebels in Balochistan and NWFP and succeed, the better prospects it is for Chinese arms industry.

 

[Tinu]

Dear man, can you show me the link of that statistic you posted here? Do you really think that such a serious issue would be displayed in public and not come to know by the top Army brass? NO ONE knows this properly. Not even our runaway media. I can never get the true facts and neither can anybody other than some wild fancy work by a few analysts. That's the reason why military is half the time secretive about all such details.

Do you actually think the real numbers would be lying around? I think not.

Yes they are almost close to reality. Visit orbat dot com, bharat-rakshak, wikipedia etc etc. You can not hide locations of major formations. There are people who have marked these locations on even maps and posted them on the net. Just to satisfy your ego, I will post some of the links here:

Indian Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
India - Army

The secrecy of most armies is exposed these days. Yes their actual war locations are known probably to the intelligence agencies and only rarely are made public.

Please visit these sites and stop showing how illiterate you are.

 

[Tinu]

You need to read the Art of War to know the CCP's actions and their reasons to so darlingly assist you. You are simply a safe highway for them to pass through straight into middle east for their goods. You are a lane that connects them to rest of Asia and open an alternative route to Malacca Straits and create an export and supply line. Compared to what you are getting right now, their plans are massive. And you're just in the same juncture what you and we were in cold war. Only this time, you're with a different supplier/ally than USA last time.

A nation such as yours engaged in multiple wars, gives China the perfect opportunity to put its creations to test. The more you use these weapons against say (for example), rebels in Balochistan and NWFP and succeed, the better prospects it is for Chinese arms industry.

I generally agree with your first paragraph. However, educated people identify and define such environment as advantages accrued through strategic location - which unfortunately the Indians don't have and if at all they do, no advantage can be taken.

And we'd be using these weapons against Indian Paid and Trained Afghan Talibans - happy

 

[Jinx1]

There is a very interesting argument posted by many Indians, not only on this discussion board but other boards as well. They say that though China is our major threat we have engaged China in economic trade and it is through this economic interaction we would neutralize Chinese threat.

The facts however are very interesting indeed. Whereas India’s trade with China is around 10% of its total trade, China’s trade with India is less than 1% of its total trade. So in case of a confrontation where trade and economy is used as a power tool, which country loses more – India.

It indeed is a deadly embrace. Enjoy it as long it lasts.

 

[Tinu]

Is it time to offer Gawadar as naval stationing base for Chinese Navy and offer to accept Chinese air force officers at our air bases.

 

[Tshering22]

Yes they are almost close to reality. Visit orbat dot com, bharat-rakshak, wikipedia etc etc. You can not hide locations of major formations. There are people who have marked these locations on even maps and posted them on the net. Just to satisfy your ego, I will post some of the links here:

Indian Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
India - Army

The secrecy of most armies is exposed these days. Yes their actual war locations are known probably to the intelligence agencies and only rarely are made public.

Please visit these sites and stop showing how illiterate you are.

As much as I enjoy taking the mickey out of you, I'd rest my case here. There are many people who are into finding military secrets and all that and true that they do exist. But with every exposure, they change. The websites (all of them) that you mention are simply an information source about the general stance of any military (here our military). Arguing regarding how many brigades and armored corps are present at the current moment is simply not possible unless you know something more than what the military analysts of our country know.

You're right that our focus was Pakistan until 2002 (before and after operation Parakram, but it changed a lot in the following years.

Let us not talk about literacy rate of either of us here shall we? I don't want to embarrass you needlessly and derail the thread.

 

[Kikki]

Is it time to offer Gawadar as naval stationing base for Chinese Navy and offer to accept Chinese air force officers at our air bases.

Do not even think like that. Do you know, the British came to India as traders, slowly over 100 years, they supplied armed support to one king against another and in the end captured both. I am not saying that in these days land will be captured, but one should not let another power on their soil to destroy a neighbour. Today China is your friend, maybe they wll come and defeat india with pakistan support, but the world doesnt end if india is defeated. China will not leave Pak and then they will start demanding more. I am saying this generally, that local fights should remain local and not call outsiders.

 

[Tshering22]

Is it time to offer Gawadar as naval stationing base for Chinese Navy and offer to accept Chinese air force officers at our air bases.

If you were bordering USA, that would be relevant. However, with their own country bordered to us what good is providing bases to them when they're already near us (and the Koreans and the Vietnamese and the Japanese) for that matter? Redundancy is what would be the right word for a PLAAF and PLAN base in your side.

I generally agree with your first paragraph. However, educated people identify and define such environment as advantages accrued through strategic location - which unfortunately the Indians don't have and if at all they do, no advantage can be taken.

And we'd be using these weapons against Indian Paid and Trained Afghan Talibans - happy

If only you could understand the true meaning of strategy to contend for the literal high ground that you claim. But of course, I don't suppose you would understand considering that "Talibans are Indian funded". Enjoy wasting your money and furthering Chinese R&D fighting a ghost enemy that doesn't even exist.

There is a very interesting argument posted by many Indians, not only on this discussion board but other boards as well. They say that though China is our major threat we have engaged China in economic trade and it is through this economic interaction we would neutralize Chinese threat.
The facts however are very interesting indeed.

Whereas India’s trade with China is around 10% of its total trade, China’s trade with India is less than 1% of its total trade. So in case of a confrontation where trade and economy is used as a power tool, which country loses more – India.

It indeed is a deadly embrace. Enjoy it as long it lasts.

You guys really think emotionally rather than sensibly don't you? No one says that China is a threat to Pakistan. Any embrace is dangerous in world politics but if anyone takes necessary precautions early on, it becomes safe and all welcoming. China is not a danger to Pakistan. It is simply viewing you as a safe highway to Middle East. That's all. That's its concerns. But of course, if you can leverage good weapons from them and at the same time retain your own sovereignty as well as political independence, then it would be a win-win for you. Now that remains to be seen.

I don't think a trade of $ 60 billion-100 billion a year is something that either countries want to lose. Your statistical estimates are of sometime back I believe. If you really think China wants to lose a significant customer base in India and India wants to lose a local supplier, then you're really wrong. You really think we cannot manufacture stuff on our own when time comes? This is where your delusion ends. Countries trade with each other so that the workload is reduced in each economies to totally make everything from the scratch. That's applicable as much to China as it is to us.

You need to really understand the basics of trade and economics before attempting to link economics to political conflicts and strategic interest.

 

[Tinu]

As much as I enjoy taking the mickey out of you, I'd rest my case here. There are many people who are into finding military secrets and all that and true that they do exist. But with every exposure, they change. The websites (all of them) that you mention are simply an information source about the general stance of any military (here our military). Arguing regarding how many brigades and armored corps are present at the current moment is simply not possible unless you know something more than what the military analysts of our country know.

You're right that our focus was Pakistan until 2002 (before and after operation Parakram, but it changed a lot in the following years.

Let us not talk about literacy rate of either of us here shall we? I don't want to embarrass you needlessly and derail the thread.

wow ....... you don't even know about your country - what can I say. This guy Ticker (I think) posted Indian army's bias and it can be confirmed from a whole lot of locations on the net. Tum na mano - to na mano.

But you can not fool the people around here and elsewhere. Quote one news which says that 80% of Indian army is now deployed against China - your threat No. 1 since the year 2000 or after. You will not be able to because it hasn't happened.

 

[Tinu]

If you were bordering USA, that would be relevant. However, with their own country bordered to us what good is providing bases to them when they're already near us (and the Koreans and the Vietnamese and the Japanese) for that matter? Redundancy is what would be the right word for a PLAAF and PLAN base in your side.


Firstly, under the current environment USA is our neighbour because of her presence in our neighbourhood which will remain for a long time. When we could give some basing rights to US, why can't we do it to the Chinese - if for nothing else, just to scare you. Your senior army officers and politicians have been shouting scared and hoarse since some time due to what they claim that the Chinese are present in Pakistan's Northern Areas.

If only you could understand the true meaning of strategy to contend for the literal high ground that you claim. But of course, I don't suppose you would understand considering that "Talibans are Indian funded". Enjoy wasting your money and furthering Chinese R&D fighting a ghost enemy that doesn't even exist.

Honestly, you have no idea what strategy is. You need to study geopolitical imperatives and geostrategy to understand the realism. You have merely lay man's knowledge and your comments show it.

You guys really think emotionally rather than sensibly don't you? No one says that China is a threat to Pakistan. Any embrace is dangerous in world politics but if anyone takes necessary precautions early on, it becomes safe and all welcoming. China is not a danger to Pakistan. It is simply viewing you as a safe highway to Middle East. That's all. That's its concerns. But of course, if you can leverage good weapons from them and at the same time retain your own sovereignty as well as political independence, then it would be a win-win for you. Now that remains to be seen.

I don't think a trade of $ 60 billion-100 billion a year is something that either countries want to lose. Your statistical estimates are of sometime back I believe. If you really think China wants to lose a significant customer base in India and India wants to lose a local supplier, then you're really wrong. You really think we cannot manufacture stuff on our own when time comes? This is where your delusion ends. Countries trade with each other so that the workload is reduced in each economies to totally make everything from the scratch. That's applicable as much to China as it is to us.

You need to really understand the basics of trade and economics before attempting to link economics to political conflicts and strategic interest.

There was a time when some analysts thought that geo-economics has taken precedence over geo-politics. In my opinion they were wrong then and are wrong now. It is geo-politics which govern geo-economics and as such economic environment are manipulated to serve the geopolitics. When the geo-economic advantage lies with China, they can take geo-political advantage any time as they see fit. Therefore, irrespective of this 60-100 billion dollar trade, the nation having advantage will always be able to manipulate it. I hope I have explained it in as simple a manner as i possibly could for a goon like you to understand the complexity. But I have my doubt.

 

[Tinu]

Do not even think like that. Do you know, the British came to India as traders, slowly over 100 years, they supplied armed support to one king against another and in the end captured both. I am not saying that in these days land will be captured, but one should not let another power on their soil to destroy a neighbour. Today China is your friend, maybe they wll come and defeat india with pakistan support, but the world doesnt end if india is defeated. China will not leave Pak and then they will start demanding more. I am saying this generally, that local fights should remain local and not call outsiders.

Sir,
Agreed, but what you explain above, you contradict it later. Real-politik played between nations does not differentiate between local and non-local conflicts or disagreements. It is the national interests which take precedence. Obviously one does not expect China to fore-go their national interests for Pakistan or any other country - neither Pakistan should expect it to. Both have to compromise on some and may agree to disagree on others, and if larger interests collude, the collusion can be furthered.