Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

[Echo_419]

As @sancho points out, it is more than likely the EMALS may come as part of a package so the IN may have no choice but to go for an American carrier fighter.

Mark my words tge IN will regret if it ever buys the F-35

 

[DeathInvader]

They surely are trying to export F35Cs, since they need more customers for it to reduce the costs. But that doesn't mean it's the only choice we have. The Silent Hornet is the most cost-effective choice IN has, it offers engine commonality to N-LCA MK2 and we might be able to get some industrial advantages out of it as well (production of certain F18SH parts or upgrade with Indian systems like indigenous RWR, MAWS or LWR). It also will offer more ease of maintenance, especially with the engine under licence production in India anyway, while the F35 is limited to maintenance at dedicated hubs only (Italy or Japan). So there are reason that speaks for the F18SH, even if it's not a stealth fighter. The question is only, can we use naval FGFA or AMCA in addition to it from the same carrier, or will we limit us to the CATOBAR design and therefor to the F35C as the only option?

That is one question we can't answer until Vishal design is finalized. But my hopes have been high since Russia's planning a hybrid carrier. And it would have a lot of influence on Vishal. I am saying this not because of our relations with russia but because Vishal would be nuclear powered and it will be already taking some help of Russians in that matter (nuclear propulsion systems). Also, Navy always had an eye for good stuff and it know N-FGFA would be a feather in their hat. Their motto of "why should IAF have all the fun?" would make them go for N-FGFA.
But currently all depends on the fate of Russian Aircraft Carrier. If N-FGFA is made catapult friendly then we don't have a problem at all.
Given this scenario If USA is giving us emals in hope of new orders than what numbers of F-18 would be economical for IN to buy as N-LCA would be ready in two years and N-AMCA may take some 10 years. By the time Vishal is inducted F18 would be obsolete. And I don't think F-18 will have any TOT for license production in India as per make in India policy and in that case HAL will get noting out of it.

 

[sancho]

That is one question we can't answer until Vishal design is finalized. But my hopes have been high since Russia's planning a hybrid carrier.

It's not only because of Russia, even if you take the know how that our industry has gained so far with STOBAR carrier design and STOBAR capable fighters, it would be stupid to just throw all that away and go for a CATOBAR carrier only because the USN does it. The logical step would be, to further improve IAC1 into IAC2! Make it bigger and more capable, which then automatically brings you to a hybrid carrier design.

 

[DeathInvader]

It's not only because of Russia, even if you take the know how that our industry has gained so far with STOBAR carrier design and STOBAR capable fighters, it would be stupid to just throw all that away and go for a CATOBAR carrier only because the USN does it. The logical step would be, to further improve IAC1 into IAC2! Make it bigger and more capable, which then automatically brings you to a hybrid carrier design.

Its not because of USN why the Navy is going for CATOBAR. STOBAR doesn't enable launching heavy aircraft hence it is interested in CATOBAR. That is exactly why even Russians are opting for hybrid carriers. Just catabors would be illogical as all the major planes would have to be redesigned for catobar operations and hence Russians opted for hybrid. IN also has the same problem as it has no significant experience in operating CATOBAR and N-lCA is already ready.
Launching heavier aircraft could be a game changer. It would mean HAL n ADA investing in AEW and other transport and reconnaissance aircraft for carrier operations.

 

[sancho]

Its not because of USN why the Navy is going for CATOBAR. STOBAR doesn't enable launching heavy aircraft

Heavy aircrafts like AEW's not heavy fighters, since the heaviest carrier fighters today are Su 33s and J15s and both are operated from STOBAR carriers. The only restriction is, that you have to limit the fuel at take off and refuel the fighters in the air, via buddy refuelling for example.

When you look at the concept of Russia for example, it gets evident that they will use fighters in A2A configs via ski-jump, while heavier AEW aircrafts (possibly transport / tanker aircrafts) and UCAVs with heavier strike loads via catapults.

 

[he-man]

IMHO the chances are next to 0% based on what the IN has inidcated and the carrier they are designing, I'm sure @sancho is more optimistic of the N-FGFA's chances in the IN though...

0 chance,needs huge investment and we don't have the moolah to do it.Neither does russia

since the heaviest carrier fighters today are Su 33s and J15s and both are operated from STOBAR carriers.

True that,thought u were wrong so double checked it.

 

[anant_s]

IN's F-35s

Looks unlikely, considering US administration would never allow ToT and it is difficult to foresee Indian government allowing such cutting edge requirement getting fulfilled without fair bit of Indian participation. IMHO N-FGFA is more likely scenario as and when it happens.

 

[Abingdonboy]

0 chance,needs huge investment and we don't have the moolah to do it.Neither does russia

Money really isn't an issue it is about demand. IF the IN wants the N-FGFA they surely can get it BUT they would have to design a carrier around it as having the N-FGFA would require having a STOBAR carrier (or at least a hybrid).Addtionally, carrier fighters these days are medium class fighters (MiG-29K, F-18, F-35) for ease of operation and maximization of internal and deck storage space. The Su-33 was overlooked by the IN for, largely, this reason (among many) and the F-14 Tomcat was replaced by the smaller (but more all-rounder) F-18- the N-FGFA would be HUGE, about the same size as the Su-33. So the IN needs to weigh the pros and cons and make the decision.

 

[he-man]

Money really isn't an issue it is about demand. IF the IN wants the N-FGFA they surely can get it BUT they would have to design a carrier around it as having the N-FGFA would require having a STOBAR carrier (or at least a hybrid).Addtionally, carrier fighters these days are medium class fighters (MiG-29K, F-18, F-35) for ease of operation and maximization of internal and deck storage space. The Su-33 was overlooked by the IN for, largely, this reason (among many) and the F-14 Tomcat was replaced by the smaller (but more all-rounder) F-18- the N-FGFA would be HUGE, about the same size as the Su-33. So the IN needs to weigh the pros and cons and make the decision.

Ur assertions are correct but russians have plans to make a f-35 class light 5 th generation fighter powered by the single engine.The engine in question would be item 30 for 2 nd stage pakfa/fgfa.

Needless to say,like many other russian plans,this may never materialize.

We better focus on rafale based on commonality with the intended 126(at least) birds for the air force.

 

[DeathInvader]

Heavy aircrafts like AEW's not heavy fighters, since the heaviest carrier fighters today are Su 33s and J15s and both are operated from STOBAR carriers. The only restriction is, that you have to limit the fuel at take off and refuel the fighters in the air, via buddy refuelling for example.

When you look at the concept of Russia for example, it gets evident that they will use fighters in A2A configs via ski-jump, while heavier AEW aircrafts (possibly transport / tanker aircrafts) and UCAVs with heavier strike loads via catapults.

U skipped my last two line sir

 

[kurup]

No I am not much more optimistic, given IN's focus on the USN as their idol. All I'm saying is, that FGFA offers all the capabilities to make it the best carrier fighter and that going for catapults doesn't necessary mean that we have to use it for fighters. It's just a matter of what is available for us, techwise, designwise and what is needed wrt operational requirements.
And as I told you before, the EMALS offer won't come for free, which is why I still think we will have to go for US carrier fighters, the one or the other way. Which however still doesn't reject N-FGFA automatically, since a hybrid carrier can support both, N-FGFA and F18SH. The Rafale M though has the least chances by now imo.

I still can't wrap my head around the idea of a hybrid carrier .

What advantages does a STOBAR fighter will have over a CATOBAR fighter ??

 

[Abingdonboy]

I still can't wrap my head around the idea of a hybrid carrier .

What advantages does a STOBAR fighter will have over a CATOBAR fighter ??

The idea of a hybrid carrier is that the larger a/c like the AEW a/c (E-2D and such) are launched by the catapult and the fighters take off from the ski-jump. The logic behind it is that this negates the need for the Russians to have to modify the PAK-FA to be able to launch from catapults which has not been designed into the airframe from the start so would either be increidbly complex, expensive and time consuming (see N-LCA project) or potentially not even possible and the Russians have little expertise in devloping CATOBAR capable carrier fighters.

As it stands STOBAR has no advantadges over CATOBAR except it is being easier to develop a STOBAR carrier fighter than a CATOBAR carrier fighter.

 

[kurup]

The idea of a hybrid carrier is that the larger a/c like the AEW a/c (E-2D and such) are launched by the catapult and the fighters take off from the ski-jump.

I knew this much .

I have read multiple times as @sancho is highly pro hybrid carrier ....

As it stands STOBAR has no advantadges over CATOBAR except it is being easier to develop a STOBAR carrier fighter than a CATOBAR carrier fighter.

Just as I thought .

The logic behind it is that this negates the need for the Russians to have to modify the PAK-FA to be able to launch from catapults which has not been designed into the airframe from the start so would either be increidbly complex, expensive and time consuming (see N-LCA project) or potentially not even possible and the Russians have little expertise in devloping CATOBAR capable carrier fighters.

But modifying a conventional carrier to STOBAR carrier would also require modifications .

Then why don't convert it into a CATOBAR fighter which in turn will make the carrier a CATOBAR one .

The only problem I see is the lack of expertise of Russians .

 

[GURU DUTT]

You can't have f18SH for your carriers.....you need catapults...or thrust vectors for the aircraft itself...

we are planning to have F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornet or the rafale M or even F 35C for owr new 65K tonne neuklear powered AC INS VISHAL (right now in design phase) and talks are in adavanced stages for US tech (EMALS)and even president obama and US goverment has in principal agreed tosell us that tech

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have read multiple times as @sancho is highly pro hybrid carrier ....

I understand why he is proposing it- the N-FGFA is surely a far better carrier fighter option than a 4.5++ Gen Rafale-M or F-18SH or a 5th gen F-35C (the only options the IN has for CATOBAR carriers as it stands). With a N-FGFA the IN would have the undisputed king of carrier fighters in their possesion which is worth pondering...

But modifying a conventional carrier to STOBAR carrier would also require modifications .

If the carrier was designed from day one as a STOBAR or CATOBAR or hybrid carrier then it would be relatively hassle free, the problem arises when you try to retrospecticvely modify a carrier to perform a certain capabilty it wasn't orginally designed for

Then why don't convert it into a CATOBAR fighter which in turn will make the carrier a CATOBAR one .

For all the reasons I have stated- it is expensive, troublesome, challenging and time consuming to do so.

The only problem I see is the lack of expertise of Russians .

This is the crux of the issue.