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Indian muslim :Javed Akhtar's India & Pakistan

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T-FaZ look at how the journalist was talking . she kept trying to prove how muslims are discriminated against . Look at this thread and other threads on defence.pk . look at your media as well . They always try to prove India is not secualr and is secular only in name . why ? to validate their own existence as a separate country ?

About wether Pakistanis care or not . We clearly see how many times Pakistanis keep talking about Gujrat and babri and other issues in India and how closely your media follows them .

The journalist in this interview as well stated that whenever a news of discrimination of muslims in India comes out Pakistanis say " Dekha , isliye hum alaida ho gaye" . Why ?

So why should it matter to you what she says if everything is as smooth as butter?

Its not like everyone is jumping onto this bandwagon, a few will always be there who wold want to put down the other for their own peace of mind.

This is also a two way street, what some do here is either started or answered by their Indian counterparts.

Point to me how many times has Gujarat or Babri has been mentioned in mainstream media and I mean the respectable one, I am sure that you Google it and come up with some links.

This so called journalist isn't worth a view and you are using her opinion as a way to build up your case against the whole nation.
 
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You see T-FAz this is the desperation to prove that Indian muslims are discriminated against that i am talking about and this is widespread in Pakistan . Even when Indian muslims themselves say its not bad here , You guys still continue with it . Why ? To validate your state's existence ? Sorry for repeating but i had to .

One guy says it and he might get a couple of backers to support him doesn't mean that the whole nation is of the same mindset.

He should just forget about the past and move on while you should not use his opinion as a broad point of view reflected by the national psyche.

Who cares what happens there or here, we are two different countries now?

That is that.
 
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One guy says it and he might get a couple of backers to support him doesn't mean that the whole nation is of the same mindset.

He should just forget about the past and move on while you should not use his opinion as a broad point of view reflected by the national psyche.

Who cares what happens there or here, we are two different countries now?

That is that.

It is a general attitude in Pakistan . Everybody knows howgujarat and babri are discussed are Pakistanis on all Pakistani forums including this one . If even after giving you examples from this very thread and that of the interviewer herself , you don't want to agree then its ok.

Lets agree to disagree here.
 
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It is a general attitude in Pakistan . Everybody knows howgujarat and babri are discussed are Pakistanis on all Pakistani forums including this one . If even after giving you examples from this very thread and that of the interviewer herself , you don't want to agree then its ok.

Lets agree to disagree here.

No, lets carry on.

An online fora or online opinion isn't reflective of factual mindset of a nation, visit Pakistan yourself and many wouldn't even be able to remember the events that you have mentioned.

I can guarantee that most would not even know what the Ayodha debate is or the date of the Gujarat riots.
 
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No, lets carry on.

An online fora or online opinion isn't reflective of factual mindset of a nation, visit Pakistan yourself and many wouldn't even be able to remember the events that you have mentioned.

I can guarantee that most would not even know what the Ayodha debate is or the date of the Gujarat riots.

I respect you as member very much and am inclined to believe you when you say this but following Pakistan on the internet its hard to believe .

Anyways , I don't know when i will visit Pakistan but lets save this debate for when that happens .
 
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@Bilal
The contention was Indian Muslims "hate" Pakistan for no reason. That is how I responded. And let me be clear that this is about GoP policies and establishment policies and not the average Pakistani people.

I just think they feel insecure about Pakistan as a nation, as many Indian Muslims are accused of having their loyalties towards Pakistan. There is still some stigma attached to 1947.

It is becuase of the GoP and their establishment that Islam and Muslims are being shamed. What is worse is that there is no jutification of their actions being Islamic but still they use Islam and create wrong impressions among rest of non-muslims.

Before 1947 & Deobandism creeping into Pakistan; Christians, Shias, Ahmedis, Parsis etc, used to live peacefully amongst the peaceful Barelvi majority population. Punjab was the region of poets, thinkers & Sufi mystics. After India's Deobandism started creeping into Pakistan, Pakistan eventually started discriminating against Ahmedis. It is unfortunate that the very Indians that opposed the creation of Pakistan starting infiltrating it after 1947.

This is what the Dar Uloom Deoband in UP, India says about Ahmedis on their website, which resulted in the eventual discrimination of Ahmedis in Pakistan in the 1973 constitution:

(Fatwa 332=307/N)

The Mirzais (Qadyanis, Ahmadiyas) are kafir. This issue is agreed upon by the Muslim Ummah.


These books may be useful: (1) Radd-e-Qadyaniat ke Zarrin Usool (2) Suboot Hazir Hain (3) Muhazarat of Darul Uloom on Qadyanism

Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'ala) knows Best

Answer: Darul Ifta Deoband India

Also, some other links:

Darul Uloom Deoband: The Indian Source of the Taliban | Kabul Center for Strategic Studies

The Pioneer :: Home : >> Roots of extremism lie in India

International Institute for Strategic Studies Islamic extremism in India

Katiyar demands ban on Darul Uloom Deoband - Express India

It is sad that Indian Muslims blame Pakistan for bringing a bad name to Islam, when it was India that started the Deobandi extremism in the region, including Pakistan. Deobandism itself is a distortion of the original Hanafi school of thought.

Then you have Pakistani establishment actively trying to create Hindu-Muslim conflict.

How did the Pakistani establishment actively try to do that?

Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan (a confidant of and adviser to the leader of one of the prominent Pakistani Islamic militant outfits, Jamaat-e-Islami) justifies such an attitude when he says “........ this is one of the serious problems of living in non-Muslim countries. ...... Yet knowingly these so-called Muslims live in India. Again, all the Muslims who migrate to other countries and US are non-Muslims. Only the Muslims who intend to come back are Muslims not the ones who decide to stay in such countries. Hence we do not care if such Indian Muslims die in the riots

Well sure, there are a few crazies in Pakistan who discriminate against Pakistanis as well, but they have very minimal support, which is these people have never been brought into power by Pakistanis, & they have never received more than 11% votes inside Pakistan.

So although you and a large number of people around you don't have ill willings against Indian muslims. The leadership of GoP andthe establishment do try their best to undermine communal harmony in India so that they can be satisfied that they are in Pakistan.

You've got the reality of the situation flipped. Pakistan took advantage of the grievances of the Kashmiri people in the 90s by supporting extremists. It only supported these groups in the 90s. India has been discriminating against its people since 1947, & starting attacking their own people (the Nagas, the Mizos, the Manipuris, people in Assam, Hyderabad). Blaming Pakistan for the India Muslim's problems is futile to say the least, when Pakistan only "cashed into" the problems/grievances of the people, & just goes to show the insecure mindset of many people there unfortunately.

Because if Indian muslims are doing better than Pakistani muslims, they feel that the raison d etre of creating Pakistan is gone.

Pakistan will remain a reality & here to stay whether Indian Muslims do better than Pakistani Muslims or not. So what you said is completely wrong. But Indian Muslims still have to face accusations of being loyal to Pakistan than to India. Which is why they have to prove their loyalties to India, by bashing Pakistan. They shouldn't have to prove their loyalties to India in the first place. It is the Indian administration that fears that Indian Muslims might shift their loyalties to Pakistan sometime.
 
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This is another one of those myths that Indians have that its only feudals or land owners who are rich in Pakistan.

Salman Taseer was not from a rich family, he was a self made man. His father died when he was very young and his mother raised him herself, he went to England for his education where he payed for it through employment.

He worked hard to create an empire worth hundreds of millions, I see you always get a little jumpy when you hear such things about Pakistan.

Half the people in my neighborhood were self made and they reached the levels of the feudals that lived next to us. A lot of people did well for themselves after the creation of Pakistan, after all we started with literally nothing reaching globally respected levels by the 60's.

The Hindu : Columns / Hindol Sengupta : Affluenza: With love from across the border

No, the feudals are not the only ones now, though a few decades back it was pretty hard for any significant numbers to make an honest living and also make it big. In India and definitely in Pakistan.

A few exceptions can always be there but not enough to make the kind of sweeping generalization like that guy made.

Tell me what is the market for BMWs in Pakistan today, what was it two decades back?

A few piffling thousands (I doubt it will be more than a few thousands even now)? Would you say that means everyone in Lahore owns one?

Let's face facts. Our per capita income has always been pretty much similar. You were ahead a few decades back (not by much) and we are ahead now (again not by much). So the average living standard was almost the same at all points.

Old memories tend to leave out some details. The common people always had it tough in both countries. Pakistan was always one of the poorest countries in the world (along with India) with one of the poorest HDI indices in the world throughout. It didn't happen one fine day.

And no, I am not jumpy "when I hear such things about Pakistan", I would like to understand the basis of such statements when common sense suggests it just can't be true.
 
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You see T-FAz this is the desperation to prove that Indian muslims are discriminated against that i am talking about and this is widespread in Pakistan . Even when Indian muslims themselves say its not bad here , You guys still continue with it . Why ? To validate your state's existence ? Sorry for repeating but i had to .

So does he forget the 35000 (Pakistani figures) butchered in Pakistan by TTP, 6000 Shia, tribals in Karachi, Ahmedis and so on.

And he remembers everything that happened (or didn't happen) in India even if it was decades back!
 
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It is sad that Indian Muslims blame Pakistan for bringing a bad name to Islam, when it was India that started the Deobandi extremism in the region, including Pakistan. Deobandism itself is a distortion of the original Hanafi school of thought.

You need to read up on how and why and when Deoband started!

Was it started by the India government? Did it start after independence? Why did the Muslims of colonial India start it?
 
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No, the feudals are not the only ones now, though a few decades back it was pretty hard for any significant numbers to make an honest living and also make it big. In India and definitely in Pakistan.

How would you know?

Its not like you have conducted extensive economic surveys in Pakistan or have actually visited the country. Pakistan started with nothing, India got everything on the other hand and we created a middle class in a short span of time. Like I said, a number of people who did not have nothing were soon moving up the ladder and I am witness to this fact.

A few exceptions can always be there but not enough to make the kind of sweeping generalization like that guy made.

What sweeping generalization, I used to attend parties, events and other get together's in Pakistan where the car parks were a sight to see. Everyone from the middle class to the upper class had a lot of disposable income and similarly Pakistani's had a penchant for spending big.

Tell me what is the market for BMWs in Pakistan today, what was it two decades back?

I am not here to conduct difficult research for you, am I?

Call Dewan motors who are the official sellers of BMW in Pakistan and they will be able to provide you with statistical information.

http://www.bmw-pakistan.com/me_dl/pk_en/

A few piffling thousands (I doubt it will be more than a few thousands even now)? Would you say that means everyone in Lahore owns one?

Certainly a lot more than Delhi which I visited in 2006/7, there was not an exotic or high performance vehicle in sight and I was living in Connaught place/Rajiv something place.

Though I gotta give you, I have never seen so many beggars in my life.

Let's face facts. Our per capita income has always been pretty much similar. You were ahead a few decades back (not by much) and we are ahead now (again not by much). So the average living standard was almost the same at all points.

It might have been but the fact remains that you could see the wealth on the streets of urban Pakistan a lot more than you would in India.

Old memories tend to leave out some details. The common people always had it tough in both countries. Pakistan was always one of the poorest countries in the world (along with India) with one of the poorest HDI indices in the world throughout. It didn't happen one fine day.

There is a major difference between rural and urban Pakistan. Though the rural parts remained backwards, the urban areas underwent rapid modernization and a lot of people benefitted as a result.

And no, I am not jumpy "when I hear such things about Pakistan", I would like to understand the basis of such statements when common sense suggests it just can't be true.

I have refrences from your sources to back up 'such statements', common sense would prevail if you used it.

Tell me have you visited Pakistan?
 
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You need to read up on how and why and when Deoband started!

Was it started by the India government? Did it start after independence? Why did the Muslims of colonial India start it?

It was started in 1866 in Deoband, UP; part of present day India.
 
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So does he forget the 35000 (Pakistani figures) butchered in Pakistan by TTP, 6000 Shia, tribals in Karachi, Ahmedis and so on.

And he remembers everything that happened (or didn't happen) in India even if it was decades back!

Wrong figure. 34964 people have died in the WOT, which includes 20893 terrorists/insurgents, 3699 security personnel & 10372 civilians.

Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2011

Which tribals are you talking about in Karachi? As far as I know, there are no 'tribals' in Karachi.
 
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How would you know?

Its not like you have conducted extensive economic surveys in Pakistan or have actually visited the country. Pakistan started with nothing, India got everything on the other hand and we created a middle class in a short span of time. Like I said, a number of people who did not have nothing were soon moving up the ladder and I am witness to this fact.

These kind of statements are too common by you guys and they are so far from being true!

India started with mass poverty, pathetic literacy rates and a nation with so much diversity, it was difficult to hold it together. Industrialization was nothing more than a few textile mills and a steel plant started by Tata for the most part.

Even India started almost from scratch. Our leaders just focused on building basic infrastructure first and the license Raj resulting from socialist policies and the massive petty corruption held us back for decades.

Now, I am not saying that you didn't have a middle class. It couldn't have been a large size. Enough to make comments like "there would have been rows of BMWs, Land Cruisers, but you still have your Marutis and Ambassadors”!

What kind of wealth do you need for owning such cars? A hundred times the average income of a common Pakistani? How many such Pakistanis could have been there? How would they earn that kind of money honestly? What professions would earn you that kind of money?

Let's understand that these cars would be owned by the top cream de la cream of Pakistan, not the middle class. So he was comparing apples to oranges when he made the comparison to Marutis.

What sweeping generalization, I used to attend parties, events and other get together's in Pakistan where the car parks were a sight to see. Everyone from the middle class to the upper class had a lot of disposable income and similarly Pakistani's had a penchant for spending big.

They may have a penchant. You just can't produce that kind of money out of thin air when the average national income is 600-700 US dollars.

It is obvious that the money was concentrated in a small number of hands in Pakistan. These people can't be called "middle class" when they are in the top 0.5% bracket of the country (and owning >70% of the wealth).

I am not here to conduct difficult research for you, am I?

Call Dewan motors who are the official sellers of BMW in Pakistan and they will be able to provide you with statistical information.

Dewan Motors Private Limited - BMW Importer Pakistan

It was not a question to you!

It was an obvious fact. A few hundred or a few thousand people don't represent a country of hundreds of millions.

Certainly a lot more than Delhi which I visited in 2006/7, there was not an exotic or high performance vehicle in sight and I was living in Connaught place/Rajiv something place.

Though I gotta give you, I have never seen so many beggars in my life.

In 2006-07, I have personally seen lots of "high performance" cars. Everything from Mercedes to BMW to Lancers to SUVs.

Of course, they would be a drop in the ocean compared to the millions of smaller cars like Marutis, Santros etc, which almost every family in Delhi owns.

I can bet that Delhi alone has a bigger car market than the whole of Pakistan!

Abut beggars, you may be right. It is a menace and a big business. They make better money than many working class people!

It might have been but the fact remains that you could see the wealth on the streets of urban Pakistan a lot more than you would in India.

There is a major difference between rural and urban Pakistan. Though the rural parts remained backwards, the urban areas underwent rapid modernization and a lot of people benefitted as a result.

No denying this. Even if the urban Pakistan has double the income of rural, it would still be in the range of 1000 USD/year.

Far from owning a small car, leave alone luxury cars. The size of your car market will tell you the size of your middle class.

I know the car penetration in Pakistan was about double of India before the Maruti revolution. I am glad that so many more Indian can afford a four wheeler even if a basic one.

Much better than a few thousand owning BMWs and the large majority not even able to afford two wheelers.

I see that more than 3.5 million cars were sold in India last year. Pakistan doesn't figure in the top 20, the last country in the list sold 700,000 cars.

I have refrences from your sources to back up 'such statements', common sense would prevail if you used it.

Tell me have you visited Pakistan?

I have not. I still know on an average how the country progressed and how their average incomes, literacy, industrialization etc. progressed. Also that you never had land reforms and a few families (22?) continued to own the vast majority of the land.
 
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Wrong figure. 34964 people have died in the WOT, which includes 20893 terrorists/insurgents, 3699 security personnel & 10372 civilians.

Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2011

Which tribals are you talking about in Karachi? As far as I know, there are no 'tribals' in Karachi.

This 35,000 thousand is a common Pakistani figure. They always claim that they lost 35000 people and 5000 security forces.

Are you saying that's a lie?

About tribals, you don't seem to be aware of the basic facts (again). It is about Pushtun tribals. Read up on the ethnic issues between Muhajirs and Pushtuns in Karachi including what happened on May 12, 2007.
 
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