Indian CBG to have 7 Escorts

[janon]

Sir, we are not talking about USA. We are discussing IN, PLAN and PN. These three countries are nuclear powers and the equation as such changes when we talk about any kind of war in such environment, land, air or naval. We should not detach ourselves from the existing environment.

You are again talking about, what India may have in future without giving any time-frame. Stealth or otherwise, anti-ship ballistic missiles are a potent threat. Yes subs are also potent defence against an AC - PLAN have close to 70, how many does IN have.

Those subs are the main reason IN can't operate in South china sea. But almost all their subs are short ranged, and cannot come anywhere near andaman or IOR. They have only four subs that have that range, and those are highly noisy and of a very old generation, comparable to what USSR fielded in the 70s. They can be easily detected and neutralised by the P8-Is or other modern ASW assets like the kamorta class corvettes. And those four are the only ones that have the legs to come even close to Indian interests.

 

[ares]

No argument there I see.

Indians are talking about future Indian carriers so let us talk about future Chinese carriers.

Indians just want people to blindly accept that they will rule over the PLAN in the IOR but they cannot use any logical arguments apart from the fact that they have the Andaman Islands.

This island will likely be blown to bits by the Chinese missiles in the first few hours of war anyway so it is irrelevant in the military picture anyway. A carrier can move whereas an Island is a fixed sitting duck.

China could, if it wanted to, rain thousand of missiles at this target if it so chooses.



Anyway it is time for me to go to bed and so Indians can enjoy more fantasies about dominating the IOR as far as I care for now.

Well the problem for Chinese is ...it is not one island ..it is an archipelago of thousand islands.

PLAN will opeartaing thousand of miles from its home base in enemy territory.IN will be operation in its own waters with not only CBG air cover..but aircover from land based aircraft.

IN will operating open waters(operating west of Malacca). PLAN will be at its most vulnerable as it will be making it way through ..worlds most tenuous straits.

In naval warfare terms ..a strait is an obvious choke point(like Gibraltor proved to be for German U-boats hoping to enter Atlantic)

Vessel do not have space to maneuver, are easily exposed ..Naval vessels can not maintain their cover ..as all the vessels in the fleet are visible from shore. in short a naval vessel crossing a strait is cannon fodder...if the navy on the otherside in not a friendly one.

 

[Jinx1]

Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world!

check out the snap ...

FGFA/MKI/Rafale armed with Hypersonic/Supersonic cruise missiles ... can effectively patrol South China Sea ...
India wont have to bother using her surface fleet or Andaman based missile batteries to confront china..



this is the point ... no matter how many vassals you bring close to Malacca to enter Indian ocean... shallow waters of Malacca with a very small area of coverage will give Indians an unfair advantage on any adversary ...

How would these aircraft reach and seek targets over south china sea. How many air to air feulers does India have. How would it provide security for these feulers. Rafales would come at a time in future, what is the time frame. What about Chinese shore based defences - would they allow such intrusions. Where would be targets be.

I wish it was as easy as you may like to think.

 

[Tumba]

How would these aircraft reach and seek targets over south china sea. How many air to air feulers does India have. How would it provide security for these feulers. Rafales would come at a time in future, what is the time frame. What about Chinese shore based defences - would they allow such intrusions. Where would be targets be.

I wish it was as easy as you may like to think.

operating from Andaman s Indians fighter wont be needing refueling ... check out the range of these fighters ... a straight line from Andaman touches Pacific ocean after 2000 Kms.. and most of the action will be taking place around 1000 Kms..

 

[Jinx1]

Those subs are the main reason IN can't operate in South china sea. But almost all their subs are short ranged, and cannot come anywhere near andaman or IOR. They have only four subs that have that range, and those are highly noisy and of a very old generation, comparable to what USSR fielded in the 70s. They can be easily detected and neutralised by the P8-Is or other modern ASW assets like the kamorta class corvettes. And those four are the only ones that have the legs to come even close to Indian interests.

Agreed. Currently, the Chinese have a potent A2/AD capability and are enhancing it, and they do not have an operational AC. Currently, India does not have the capability to counter even the existing Chinese A2/AD capability.

When and if in future, India decides to block Chinese entry/exit from Malacca, all traffic through Malacca gets blocked. All SE Asian countries and those outside get involved.

Lets say, the Chinese don't confront the Indians at Andaman. They can bypass Andaman.

However, if the Chinese decide to confront India, the hostilities may not be restricted to Andaman only.

operating from Andaman s Indians fighter wont be needing refueling ... check out the range of these fighters ... a straight line from Andaman touches Pacific ocean after 2000 Kms.. and most of the action will be taking place around 1000 Kms..

Sir, could you please identify the targets for these aircraft. What will they strike at.

 

[janon]

How would these aircraft reach and seek targets over south china sea. How many air to air feulers does India have. How would it provide security for these feulers. Rafales would come at a time in future, what is the time frame. What about Chinese shore based defences - would they allow such intrusions. Where would be targets be.

I wish it was as easy as you may like to think.

Nobody said its easy. But its not easy for China either, thats the point. They would also face all the difficulties you mentioned. Somehow pakistani (not you in particular) and bangladeshi members keep pointing out problems that India would face, while for china it would all be as easy as pressing a few buttons and launching hundreds of missiles and supercarriers and stealth planes. Real war is a very complex affair, and very difficult when they enemy is a capable one.

You are questioning when India would have rafales, but earlier the bangladeshi guy was claiming that Chinese supercarriers would carry stealth fighters, and MKIs and Rafales would fall like flies or some such colourful expression. This when China doesn't even have a navalised stealth plane on paper, and so far it is struggling to navalise the reverse engineered flanker.

Real war won't be easy for either side. Naval engagements are highly unlikely for all the reasons mentioned earlier.

When and if in future, India decides to block Chinese entry/exit from Malacca, all traffic through Malacca gets blocked. All SE Asian countries and those outside get involved.

Lets say, the Chinese don't confront the Indians at Andaman. They can bypass Andaman.

However, if the Chinese decide to confront India, the hostilities may may not be restricted to Andaman only.

I think you missed my post about blocking malacca from andaman. ONly PLAN ships and subs will need to be blocked, any other merchant vessel can pass unhindered through pre arranged routes (read unmined).

 

[Jinx1]

Nobody said its easy. But its not easy for China either, thats the point. They would also face all the difficulties you mentioned. Somehow pakistani (not you in particular) and bangladeshi members keep pointing out problems that India would face, while for china it would all be as easy as pressing a few buttons and launching hundreds of missiles and supercarriers and stealth planes. Real war is a very complex affair, and very difficult when they enemy is a capable one.

You are questioning when India would have rafales, but earlier the bangladeshi guy was claiming that Chinese supercarriers would carry stealth fighters, and MKIs and Rafales would fall like flies or some such colourful expression. This when China doesn't even have a navalised stealth plane on paper, and so far it is struggling to navalise the reverse engineered flanker.

Real war won't be easy for either side. Naval engagements are highly unlikely for all the reasons mentioned earlier.

Well said, sir. Agreed.

I think you missed my post about blocking malacca from andaman. ONly PLAN ships and subs will need to be blocked, any other merchant vessel can pass unhindered through pre arranged routes (read unmined).

Well, in a war zone, a restricted waterway like Malacca, where two powerful navies are eying each other, nobody will enter. This being a world common would invite trouble for both India and china. Here I disagree with you.

 

[Tumba]

Agreed. Currently, the Chinese have a potent A2/AD capability and are enhancing it, and they do not have an operational AC. Currently, India does not have the capability to counter even the existing Chinese A2/AD capability.

When and if in future, India decides to block Chinese entry/exit from Malacca, all traffic through Malacca gets blocked. All SE Asian countries and those outside get involved.

Lets say, the Chinese don't confront the Indians at Andaman. They can bypass Andaman.

However, if the Chinese decide to confront India, the hostilities may may not be restricted to Andaman only.



Sir, could you please identify the targets for these aircraft. What will they strike at.

India wont be blocking the pass ... India will be just responding to the aggression ... in case chinese decides to go crazy ...

And yaa Chinese cant bypass the Andaman that is the whole point ... do you think chinese will try to exhaust all thr resources supplies.. taking the longer route to confront India... that too the Indian main land...


The strike targets will be every chinese naval/merchant ships... no point which way they take...


and lastly .. I dont think chinese will ever be that stupid to strike India by navy ... most of the fighting will be in Himalayas.. which provides cover to both forces // and also acts as a barrier/constrain for both... but this is sure India wont be sparing any chinese chinese ship in Indian ocean..

 

[Jinx1]

@janon

Also, if I were China, I would say that IN is using civil liners mounted with missiles and is attempting to move them through Malacca. There goes.

 

[sexy gun]

who said IN can block chinese merchants near malacca only ?? We can block them near OMAN coast/Straights of Hormuz.

IN warships are already working there to tame the piracy menace off the coast of somalia.

 

[Jinx1]

India wont be blocking the pass ... India will be just responding to the aggression ... in case chinese decides to go crazy ...

And yaa Chinese cant bypass the Andaman that is the whole point ... do you think chinese will try to exhaust all thr resources supplies.. taking the longer route to confront India... that too the Indian main land...


The strike targets will be every chinese naval/merchant ships... no point which way they take...


and lastly .. I dont think chinese will ever be that stupid to strike India by navy ... most of the fighting will be in Himalayas.. which provides cover to both forces // and also acts as a barrier/constrain for both... but this is sure India wont be sparing any chinese chinese ship in Indian ocean..

Yaar, your posts are laden with emotions and, please don't mind, less realism.

Please find a reason as to why would China want to confront India at Malacca or Andaman. You guys are saying that you'll blow them up - please explain the reason, why.

By passing Malacca, yes they can. If you are saying, no they can't, then you don't understand naval warfare.

How will your aircraft identify every Chinese merchant ship in South China Sea. PALN assets is understandable.

As for your land war with China - India says that the strategy against China would a Dissuading Defence or Deterrence. We can discuss this separately if you want.

who said IN can block chinese merchants near malacca only ?? We can block them near OMAN coast/Straights of Hormuz.

IN warships are already working there to tame the piracy menace off the coast of somalia.

You instigate any kind of blockade against any IOR country. That is declaration of war and you are the aggressor. You are going against merchant shipping in world commons. Please understand the implications and ramifications.

 

[Yeti]

Sir, we are not talking about USA. We are discussing IN, PLAN and PN. These three countries are nuclear powers and the equation as such changes when we talk about any kind of war in such environment, land, air or naval. We should not detach ourselves from the existing environment.

You are again talking about, what India may have in future without giving any time-frame. Stealth or otherwise, anti-ship ballistic missiles are a potent threat. Yes subs are also potent defence against an AC - PLAN have close to 70, how many does IN have.

We are far behind China in terms of numbers when it comes to subs but from 2015 onwards we will be getting our hands on the Scorpene submarine not to mention we have a Akula 2 on lease from Russia already which is a very silent sub btw.



If you take a look at our Shivalik-class you can see some of the important weapon systems & sensors incorporated into the Shivalik-class below:

Notice the Barak SAM system on it? we are now working on Barak 8 with Israel


Naval Barak-8 is a long-range anti-air and anti-missile naval defence system being developed jointly by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) of India. Surface-to-air missiles (SAM) can counter attack aircraft, UAVs and incoming anti-ship missiles. The missile is expected to enter service with the Indian Navy in 2013.


The system components include vertically launched missile, a dual-pulse rocket motor, active radar seeker and a two-way data link.

The missile is capable of intercepting supersonic sea-skimming anti-ship missiles and high altitude targets. It can simultaneously engage multiple targets in severe saturation scenarios. The multitarget capability will be achieved by a high performance warhead with an effective hit-to-kill mechanism.

The missile demonstrates exceptional interception characteristics throughout a very wide operational envelope. The same interceptor missile can be equipped with an additional booster motor for increasing the range. An advanced stand alone data link supports multiple simultaneous target intercepts and optimised wide area protection.

 

[Jinx1]

Lets leave something for the later.

Good day to all of you gentlemen.

 

[Tumba]

Yaar, your posts are laden with emotions and, please don't mind, less realism.

Please find a reason as to why would China want to confront India at Malacca or Andaman. You guys are saying that you'll blow them up - please explain the reason, why.

By passing Malacca, yes they can. If you are saying, no they can't, then you don't understand naval warfare.

How will your aircraft identify every Chinese merchant ship in South China Sea. PALN assets is understandable.

As for your land war with China - India says that the strategy against China would a Dissuading Defence or Deterrence. We can discuss this separately if you want.



You instigate any kind of blockade against any IOR country. That is declaration of war and you are the aggressor. You are going against merchant shipping in world commons. Please understand the implications and ramifications.

the problem with you is ... you want to show china as invincible power that will crush hindu India ...
and in reality I dont see that happening ...

you dont want to see the simple logic ... you should know the basic of Naval Warfare ... you cant sink an ISLAND ...
and the Normandy style landing is out of question in case of Andamans...

 

[Jinx1]

the problem with you is ... you want to show china as invincible power that will crush hindu India ...
and in reality I dont see that happening ...

you dont want to see the simple logic ... you should know the basic of Naval Warfare ... you cant sink an ISLAND ...
and the Normandy style landing is out of question in case of Andamans...

You have not answered any of the questions.

I am not trying to portray China as invincible or a Hindu India being crushed etc. Read my posts.

I agree with you that hundreds of Andaman and Nicobar Islands can not be sunk. At the same time, these can not move and remain stationery. Normandy style landings against hundreds of Islands is not possible - agreed.

India does have the capability to block Malacca from Andaman and Nicobar but does India have the capacity to sustain the ramifications of such an action - I don't think so.