Indian Air Force, Army Debate "Cold Start" Against Pakistan

[BATMAN]

Isnt the same thing PAK has said 1 Muslim = 100 Hindus and you lost the war...... we have seen you potential every war you lost more.

Did you hear the echos comming from Pak mountains?
I think this is common belief among hindus....

 

[ambidex]

what kind of joke is this? The second the indians fly into our air space, they'll be obliterated. I'm not worried about their migs at all. Kargil war showed that old anzas can handle them very well. Rbs70 and sending interceptors toward su30 would be inevitable. india has larger force but PAF would play a very effective defensive and offensive defence role. After PAF and armoured corps obliteration of indian columns at Sialkot/Chawinda, indians should think very carefully before even attempting such a venture. We take our defences very seriously, and the thought of indians especially would ensure the threat is dealt with, with alacrity and decisiveness

Sir,
We know every thing about this tell us something new.
The time and surprise is the main instrument if would be implicated as per textbook. Furthermore we want Pakistan to take their defence seriously and be at the alert maximum they can. You know what i mean.
I have seen many Pak experts referring to kargil difficulties India faced to as an Pakistani advantage specifically InAir force losses. I would like to ask would Pakistan be able to launch laborious but effective offence via LOC in case of full scale war or flash (cold start) Indian offences.

Georgian invasion by Russia was done before any satellite could snap the movement! I would like to see Pakistani capabilities to smell born forward Indian Army's movement. Pakistani network is more border probing, manual and spy based, however some new acquisitions has helped to enhance the same by other means but those means are not air tight can be easily traced and deceived. In past the threat of US assistance to provide logistical inputs was India's main concern. It would be interesting to see how Pakistan will prepare its self for long term investments to compete with India and defend.
Regards.

 

[Naradmuni]

i never see Pakistani Kashmiris rioting and waving indian flags......

Stop watching PTV then and come to Jammu Kashmir on 26 January.

 

[Naradmuni]

So shall we believe that india's policy of no first nuclear strike is deception?

What makes you think that?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Keep the discussion to the Cold Start Doctrine, Kashmir has many other thread to get discussed.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

In reply BATMAN

PLZ explain wat weapons Pakistan has that can stop SU30MKI 40k carriers and cruise missles..

Pak is a very pooely equipped military very small budget and 90% antiquated weapons

We don't have Cruise missiles? or you think they are duds....

Let me put it like this,
India CAN win a war, but are they read to pay the price

 

[TaimiKhan]

In reply BATMAN

PLZ explain wat weapons Pakistan has that can stop SU30MKI 40k carriers and cruise missles..

Pak is a very pooely equipped military very small budget and 90% antiquated weapons

You seriously need to learn about Pakistan Army and the weapons it have and its modernization plans of future.

90% antiquated weapons ??? You for sure have a very bad sense of humor.

 

[TaimiKhan]

We don't have Cruise missiles? or you think they are duds....

Let me put it like this,
India CAN win a war, but are they read to pay the price

If you pay a heavy price to win a war, then that win is not a win nor it has any charm left in it to be celebrated as a win.

 

[Naradmuni]

You seriously need to learn about Pakistan Army and the weapons it have and its modernization plans of future.

90% antiquated weapons ??? You for sure have a very bad sense of humor.

I think economic self reliance is the key here. Those modernisation plans would be subject to heavy scrutinity by the makers of the kerry lugar bill.

And the next war would in any case never be a convential one. Failed Operation parakram is an example.

It has to be a covert one, if not then it would be network centric rather than platform centric. Gone are the days of amassing troops and atacking with strike formations. Cold start, space command etc are steps considering this prospect and new reality.

 

[TheBraveHeart]

Let me put it like this,
India CAN win a war, but are they read to pay the price

If need be then YES!!
It won't be only India who will pay but also Pakistan. Other neighboring countries will also suffer substantially.......
The whole sub-continent will be in a state of chaos......

As far as the Cold Start doctrine is concerned, I doubt it would ever be put into effect, coz it mentions only propitious circumstances which are mostly hard to believe ........
India will need to have very strong reasons to put this doctrine in effect and also will have to have a very strong case in front of International community which will certainly interfere at the first signs of implementations.....Another important point would be the buffer that the Govt. at that time would provide to the forces so that nuclear weapons don't come into contentions..

It would have to be something like the second world war scenario, a Mumbai like situation or even for that matter the 1971 crises may not be good enough reasons for its implementation...

The weapons that are being bought in my opinion are just show of power as of now and to counter a very hypothetical scenario where India will have to face Pakistan-China at the same time in future ............

 

[TaimiKhan]

I think economic self reliance is the key here. Those modernisation plans would be subject to heavy scrutinity by the makers of the kerry lugar bill. And the next war would in any case never be a convential one. Operation parakram is an example.

It has to be a covert one. Similarly network centric rather than platform centric. Gone are the days of amassing troops and atacking with strike formations. Cold start is a step considering this prospect and new reality.

Sir, there is a plan named AFFDP-2019 (Armed Forces Future Development Plan) which was planned and made into action years back by Musharaf, when KLB had nothing to do with Pakistan nor it will affect PDF modernization process. Yeah delays can take place of a few years, but the plan will keep happening as time passes by.

Nor it is gonna be financed by KLB, it will have its share in the defence budget and if needed extra funds from govt would be provided. Plus many of the things in the plan would be indigenous, and other weapon systems would be sourced from countries which can provide easy financial repayments terms.

PAF, PN & PA all have their share and nearly everyone has finalized the procurements or would do in a couple of years. Like for PN, next batch of frigates,corvettes are likely to be ordered by next year, submarine seems to be other things, which if ordered by next year would all be in the PN by 2019. Same case with PAF, AEW&Cs, air refuellers, JF-17s coming online, plans for further blocks in the pipeline, FC-20s coming by 2014-15 and more would be ordered once initial 36 come, new 18 F-16s would be there by end of 2010-11, the MLUs would then get started and if possible 2nd hand more to be ordered. So if these plans get going by 2019 both arms would be fully operational and at top of their capability.

PA is also upgrading, artillery being changed to 155 caliber standard as time goes by, tanks getting upgraded and new ones coming in. ATGMs getting upgraded. SFs going to division strength, air assualt capabilities getting stronger, air assets being procured. Attack helicopter being looked into, hope so in a year or so finalized. Plus lot of other things.

So these things have nothing to do with KLB as its just related to USA, even if they stop it we can still procure what we have planned for.

 

[Naradmuni]

Let me put it like this,
India CAN win a war, but are they read to pay the price

The best way to win the war without paying major price is to balkanize pakistan. Remember if even Baluchistan is seperated then there remain very little of pakistan to deal with. Increased Indian activity in afghanistan could be an indicator of this new oppurtunity.

People here know that a conventional war with pakistan is a distant possibility considering the ground realities. Even Cold-start could serve only as a point scorer for a swift retaliation or low gain endevours.

This geo-political strategy could be very much on the table and I think pakistanis need to realise this before its too late. Last heard was that Indian interest in baluchistan was reconsidered by GOI since 2001, after it was officially dropped off by in 1995.

 

[Naradmuni]

Sir, there is a plan named AFFDP-2019 (Armed Forces Future Development Plan) which was planned and made into action years back by Musharaf, when KLB had nothing to do with Pakistan nor it will affect PDF modernization process. Yeah delays can take place of a few years, but the plan will keep happening as time passes by.

Nor it is gonna be financed by KLB, it will have its share in the defence budget and if needed extra funds from govt would be provided. Plus many of the things in the plan would be indigenous, and other weapon systems would be sourced from countries which can provide easy financial repayments terms.

PAF, PN & PA all have their share and nearly everyone has finalized the procurements or would do in a couple of years. Like for PN, next batch of frigates,corvettes are likely to be ordered by next year, submarine seems to be other things, which if ordered by next year would all be in the PN by 2019. Same case with PAF, AEW&Cs, air refuellers, JF-17s coming online, plans for further blocks in the pipeline, FC-20s coming by 2014-15 and more would be ordered once initial 36 come, new 18 F-16s would be there by end of 2010-11, the MLUs would then get started and if possible 2nd hand more to be ordered. So if these plans get going by 2019 both arms would be fully operational and at top of their capability.

PA is also upgrading, artillery being changed to 155 caliber standard as time goes by, tanks getting upgraded and new ones coming in. ATGMs getting upgraded. SFs going to division strength, air assualt capabilities getting stronger, air assets being procured. Attack helicopter being looked into, hope so in a year or so finalized. Plus lot of other things.

So these things have nothing to do with KLB as its just related to USA, even if they stop it we can still procure what we have planned for.

Thank you for the insight sir.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thank you for the insight sir.

Do you really think that a conventional war is on the cards?

Right now or in near future don't think so, if God forbids some catastrophic development doesn't takes place.

Plus in long run also kind of difficult until some uncontrollable thing happened.

 

[Khajur]

Right now or in near future don't think so, if God forbids some catastrophic development doesn't takes place.

Plus in long run also kind of difficult until some uncontrollable thing happened.

Even in a nuclear free subcontinent,large scale war would've been impossible since it doesnt make any sense as occupying land even a disputed one is unacceptable in the modern times .In the previous wars faught between india and pakistan ,we saw both countries giving up lands occupied by them during the war.In 71 war,india didnt gain any territory.

But still ther are good chances for border skirmishes and terrror related offensive reactions espacially from india.

And god forbid ,if the nuclear exchage take place,the whole of sub continet would become a slaughter house and unparallel killings would take place...i'm taking the aftermath of nuclear war and about people who survive that nuclear fallout.