India to use GE’s Engine for possible co-development of 110kN thrust engine for AMCA

[kaykay]

US engines make sense.....even French and UK are offering though.

 

[C130]

What about availability? Until unless it's made in India with maximum ToT it's very daring move indeed


What about availability? Until unless it's made in India with maximum ToT it's very daring move indeed


LOL ToT from US? OK I wish I had horns on my head too...

if we were talking about the F-135 engine I would say no shot in hell for a ToT

but the GE-414 I think it will happen.


reason being is U.S transition from the Super Hornet to the F-35

in our eyes it's obsolete, but for other countries like India it's something they need and can learn from.

we could sell India a few hundred engines made in the U.S, and then India can make the rest. India aircraft exported using the GE-414 would have to pay a royalty to GE as well.

 

[knight11]

LOLZ, everyone crying for GE EPE engine. But we could put some effort, resources and offcourse funds, India could break one more barrier, which is Indegineous Turbofan engine -- Kaveri.

In 15 years India would need turbo fan engine costing up to 15000 Crore Rupees, and if it could come up with the indeginous one could save 30-35% of the cost. Look at the China, in 2010, when GTRE team reached Russia for the high altitude test for its engine, they were shocked to see the Chinese team. The Chinese test fails, but on that China pumped 60 Billion dollar in Aircraft building and large chunk on the turbofan engine and our GTRE, are still searching for an airframe for the first Indian turbofan engine to go supersonic and IAF refuses to give its MIG-29 as test bed.
So why couldn't RM/GOI can give GTRE funds so that they could buy one MIg-29 or SU-30MKI, of which the later is been licensed produced in our HAL and that too when GTRE is confident, that they have solved the puzzle of the turbofan engine development and many break through have been achieved. A good example to the situation, after sucessful high altitude test in Russia, no funds was released for he period of 3 years by our so called finance bureaucrats.

When we talk about the turbofan engine tech. it is more stringent than the nuclear tech know how, and the tech. remains in the hands of few handful OEM, which you could count on finger -- GE, and Pratts and Witney of American origin, Saturn NPO, and Klimov of Russia, Snemea of France, Rolls Royce of UK, and Eurojet of the consortium of Germany, Spain, and Aviro of Itally.

Most of the people here talk of the Single crystal fan tech, metallurgical know how which India lack and claim it has less thrust, heavy wt., old technology etc etc. So what in a plain language the problem in the layman terms. Kaveri with its core Kabini build from the Ni-Cad alloy, which can sustain the temperature of 400 degree centigrade, above which the parts would become soft, and then it could no take the stress plus its heavy weight increases the wt of the engine. So now GTRE needed the parts from the Titanium-aluminium alloy which is lighter and could work above 500 degree temperature, so what is the fuss. Problem is that Ti-Al alloy parts could not be melted and casted to the desired shape, other wise it will become hard, and brittle, but needed to be made with thin layers sticked together with the bond layer by layer but the know how and the machines/tools/method know how to build them is with some of the OEM mentioned above. So when these tech. is not available, you have to build them, hard with R&D, patience, and hardwork and funds. When it is related to the Industrial capability why allegation on GTRE.

What is required is the Funds, some time, and Patience and most important Faith, and we could break this boundary too Inshah Allah.

 

[C130]

LOLZ, everyone crying for GE EPE engine. But we could put some effort, resources and offcourse funds, India could break one more barrier, which is Indegineous Turbofan engine -- Kaveri.

In 15 years India would need turbo fan engine costing up to 15000 Crore Rupees, and if it could come up with the indeginous one could save 30-35% of the cost. Look at the China, in 2010, when GTRE team reached Russia for the high altitude test for its engine, they were shocked to see the Chinese team. The Chinese test fails, but on that China pumped 60 Billion dollar in Aircraft building and large chunk on the turbofan engine and our GTRE, are still searching for an airframe for the first Indian turbofan engine to go supersonic and IAF refuses to give its MIG-29 as test bed.
So why couldn't RM/GOI can give GTRE funds so that they could buy one MIg-29 or SU-30MKI, of which the later is been licensed produced in our HAL and that too when GTRE is confident, that they have solved the puzzle of the turbofan engine development and many break through have been achieved. A good example to the situation, after sucessful high altitude test in Russia, no funds was released for he period of 3 years by our so called finance bureaucrats.

When we talk about the turbofan engine tech. it is more stringent than the nuclear tech know how, and the tech. remains in the hands of few handful OEM, which you could count on finger -- GE, and Pratts and Witney of American origin, Saturn NPO, and Klimov of Russia, Snemea of France, Rolls Royce of UK, and Eurojet of the consortium of Germany, Spain, and Aviro of Itally.

Most of the people here talk of the Single crystal fan tech, metallurgical know how which India lack and claim it has less thrust, heavy wt., old technology etc etc. So what in a plain language the problem in the layman terms. Kaveri with its core Kabini build from the Ni-Cad alloy, which can sustain the temperature of 400 degree centigrade, above which the parts would become soft, and then it could no take the stress plus its heavy weight increases the wt of the engine. So now GTRE needed the parts from the Titanium-aluminium alloy which is lighter and could work above 500 degree temperature, so what is the fuss. Problem is that Ti-Al alloy parts could not be melted and casted to the desired shape, other wise it will become hard, and brittle, but needed to be made with thin layers sticked together with the bond layer by layer but the know how and the machines/tools/method know how to build them is with some of the OEM mentioned above. So when these tech. is not available, you have to build them, hard with R&D, patience, and hardwork and funds. When it is related to the Industrial capability why allegation on GTRE.

What is required is the Funds, some time, and Patience and most important Faith, and we could break this boundary too Inshah Allah.

yawn....Kaveri is a dead stick. India could try again and pour 100x more funding into it, but you are still looking at 10 years to develop the engine. which there is also is guarantee that it'll be better than the GE-414EPE.


so for 10 years what does India do in the mean time??

 

[Guynextdoor2]

a deal between U.S/GE and India regarding the F-404/414 would be a monster deal

India wants to induct hundreds of Tejas MKI/II and hundreds of AMCA. That is 1000's of engines over the lifetime of both birds.

you could use the F-414EPE on Tejas MKII as well...whether that would give it super cruise capability would be interesting

and streamlining logistics of just using one engine type instead of another engine as well between both aircraft.

you could even streamline it even more if Tejas or AMCA becomes carrier capable, leaving the Mig-29K in a minor role.


so the main three engines in India future would be (excluding trainers)


-Saturn AL-31FP (Su-30MKI)
-General Electric GE-414EPE ( Tejas II, AMCA)
-Saturn AL-41 (FGFA)

And there are other advantages. GE already has a lot of development and R&D centres in India so offsetwise they can increase aerospace R&D here. They have a lot of manufacturing facilities too, so a jet engine/ components factory is very much the sort of stuff they know how to manage.

yawn....Kaveri is a dead stick. India could try again and pour 100x more funding into it, but you are still looking at 10 years to develop the engine. which there is also is guarantee that it'll be better than the GE-414EPE.


so for 10 years what does India do in the mean time??

Kaveri will continue to be developed and used for UAV, marine gas etc. Here it is not a question of 'success'- you can't not have core tech in some substantial form. Like 1500 HP diesel engines for tanks and other vehicles. No matter how much a project bombs, you'll continue work until you succeed.

 

[knight11]

yawn....Kaveri is a dead stick. India could try again and pour 100x more funding into it, but you are still looking at 10 years to develop the engine. which there is also is guarantee that it'll be better than the GE-414EPE.


so for 10 years what does India do in the mean time??

Got get Yawn............

Kaveri is been evolved to K9+ and K10, and have been delinked from the LCA Project, not dead. What I am saying is the last milestone for the Kaveri to put it on a airframe, for its supersonic adventure which need Mig29 or MkI typer airframe with 2 engine.

Even if Kaveri is ready today, F404 engine would have been used, because the rule of the thumb says, the New, unreliable engine on the Reliable airframe, and Reliable engine on unreliable airframe.

LCA Tejas was designed around Kaveri engine, and not around F404 engine, aka the Supersonic airintake when designed is meant for some fixed airflow pressure, which in this case is the Kaveri of higher pressure, than the lower air pressure of GE F-404INS20 Engine. However when the Kaveri was scrapped, the ADA tries to patch up this design deficiencies, with the some steps like few nozzle holes ect, rather than designing the whole airintake design and even for the MK-2 same airintake design.

And for your statement about who told me that engine would be better than GE 414INS EPE, the answer is there is no 414 EPE engine either, and why it is better because the amount paid for the engine would be in the foreign exchange i.e dollor and here in case of India, the cost will be 1 lakh crore rupees in 15 years, and will directly go the respective OEM and won't give any self reliance toward the turbofan manufacturing. and most important, if Rolls Royce decide to stop the delivery of the Engine to India, the govt. can't do anything to the OEM, and the only thing suffer would be the IAF, India, and the Jaguar fighter plane.

 

[#hydra#]

if we were talking about the F-135 engine I would say no shot in hell for a ToT

but the GE-414 I think it will happen.
What about unfinished f136 engine?

reason being is U.S transition from the Super Hornet to the F-35

in our eyes it's obsolete, but for other countries like India it's something they need and can learn from.

we could sell India a few hundred engines made in the U.S, and then India can make the rest. India aircraft exported using the GE-414 would have to pay a royalty to GE as well.

 

[Echo_419]

yawn....Kaveri is a dead stick. India could try again and pour 100x more funding into it, but you are still looking at 10 years to develop the engine. which there is also is guarantee that it'll be better than the GE-414EPE.


so for 10 years what does India do in the mean time??

Engine tech is something which we simply cannot buy, Investing our own money into our own R&D is the only solution