India to retire first Kilo-class submarine this year

[Yasser76]

I already said about endurance! I also said about technology as you are claiming that A90Bs is far and more sophisticated than IN Scorpenes.

The same claim I can make that an upgraded kilo submarine is far and more sophisticated than your upcoming new subs.

But, The only fact is that Scorpenes is one generation ahead to A90Bs. Technological one of the advanced present available submarines.

AIP does not make difference in India and Pak WAR scenario. Kilo-class sub endurance is around 60 hours without a recharge..

AIP is 2 weeks without recharge, that is very relevant in Pak v India war.....

 

[vishwambhar]

I already said about endurance! I also said about technology as you are claiming that A90Bs is far and more sophisticated than IN Scorpenes.

The same claim I can make that an upgraded kilo submarine is far and more sophisticated than your upcoming new subs.

But, The only fact is that Scorpenes is one generation ahead to A90Bs. Technological one of the advanced present available submarines.

AIP does not make difference in India and Pak WAR scenario. Kilo-class sub endurance is around 60 hours without a recharge..

I heard our last 2 scorpeans out of 6 , VAGHIR and VAGHSHIR will be AIP equipped....is it true????

Nevertheless except AIP scorpean must be having some advantages over Agosta 90 B because of it being newer submarine....

However both A90 and scorpeans are one of the most deadly submarines in Asia....

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

If they do not do a second mid life refit on the last three Kilos that do not have it, by around 2028 PN will have parity or near parity with India on conventional Subs. 3 A90Bs + 8 Hangor V 6 Scorpenes + 4 Type 209s+ 3 Kilos. Whats more none of these have AIP, and the Type 209s are now almost 40 years old. 7 of India's subs will be amongst the oldest in service anywhere in the world.

India to retire first Kilo-class submarine this year

But its submarine woes are unlikely to end soon as it stares at a lost decade of its underwater arm

www.indiatoday.in

yeah...we'll have 6 nuclear subs. Each at least 3 times as large as PN Subs.

I heard our last 2 scorpeans out of 6 , VAGHIR and VAGHSHIR will be AIP equipped....is it true????

Nevertheless except AIP scorpean must be having some advantages over Agosta 90 B because of it being newer submarine....

However both A90 and scorpeans are one of the most deadly submarines in Asia....

the DRDO has completed work on AIP system. All scorpenes will be fitted with it. For some it will be mid life because you need to cut open the hull and put it in. It was a deliberate decision to use only Indian AIPs. We could have put in french but no.

 

[Euro fighter]

I think the weakness in all of this are the words "might" and "plans". India "planned" 126 Rafales and a third carrier. Means nothing. Now thanks to massive 2nd wave of Covid 2021 will be major economic hit for India.

Indonesia just lost one Type 209 sub similar in age and spec to India's Type 209s. So good luck.

Yasser

I think you missed the main point of the article i posted completely.

1. That Indian Navy have shelved the 3rd carrier plans for Vishal in favour of spending $10 billion on next generation nuclear attack Submarines arriving 2030 onwards
2. That the Project 75i will be shelved to save further $7 billion to build enlarged Super Scorpene subs x 6 vessels. Reason being india has budget contrainsts.

However in interests of modernisation they will buy 3 more Scorpene subs off the Shelf from France most likely now

So the plans are very modest

The only other major induction 2 more nuclear Arihant subs to be added to Arighat & Arihant

Re: Your prediction of 8 Chinease Type 039 Subs in PN by 2028 i will hold judgement to see when you induct the first one bearing in mind we Hit year 2022 in 7 months . You financial problems are huge relative to india,s Covid Issues.

All good in plans .. lets see who delivers what first

Finally AIP is very useful but Sonar technology numbers and types of missles and torpedos and the stealth and acustique noise reduction is even more vital.

Are chinease building more capable subs than French German & Russia ....... I have my doubt .

Finally AIP

well check this please
DRDO develops AIP technology, Indian subs to be more silent and lethal | Hindustan Times

India is adding AIP to all its subs starting 2023 with INS Kalveri

So your point about Pakistan having 11 AIP subs versis india having none is looking preety weak now .

I think your belief that india will stand still for next 7 years is very complacent and ignorant.

They have far more resources to continue to modernise than Pakistan will ever have. So lets see how things pan out but dont expect India to just sit back their naval plans are very wide ranging

 

[White and Green with M/S]

guys can we stick to topic, this thread is not Scorpion Vs Augusta 90B for D!ck measuring contest, i think IN Scorpion is more advance but without the AIP system they will come out on the surface for recharging their batteries and hence being detected

yeah...we'll have 6 nuclear subs. Each at least 3 times as large as PN Subs.

Your Nuke subs is basically for China, you have enough conventional subs to deter Pakistan, and large mean it can have relatively more chance for being detecting, look a the USN Virginia class they are slighty bigger than conventional subs

 

[Yasser76]

Yasser

I think you missed the main point of the article i posted completely.

1. That Indian Navy have shelved the 3rd carrier plans for Vishal in favour of spending $10 billion on next generation nuclear attack Submarines arriving 2030 onwards
2. That the Project 75i will be shelved to save further $7 billion to build enlarged Super Scorpene subs x 6 vessels. Reason being india has budget contrainsts.

However in interests of modernisation they will buy 3 more Scorpene subs off the Shelf from France most likely now

So the plans are very modest

The only other major induction 2 more nuclear Arihant subs to be added to Arighat & Arihant

Re: Your prediction of 8 Chinease Type 039 Subs in PN by 2028 i will hold judgement to see when you induct the first one bearing in mind we Hit year 2022 in 7 months . You financial problems are huge relative to india,s Covid Issues.

All good in plans .. lets see who delivers what first

Finally AIP is very useful but Sonar technology numbers and types of missles and torpedos and the stealth and acustique noise reduction is even more vital.

Are chinease building more capable subs than French German & Russia ....... I have my doubt .

Finally AIP

well check this please
DRDO develops AIP technology, Indian subs to be more silent and lethal | Hindustan Times

India is adding AIP to all its subs starting 2023 with INS Kalveri

So your point about Pakistan having 11 AIP subs versis india having none is looking preety weak now .

I think your belief that india will stand still for next 7 years is very complacent and ignorant.

They have far more resources to continue to modernise than Pakistan will ever have. So lets see how things pan out but dont expect India to just sit back their naval plans are very wide ranging

I will overlook the patronising tone of your response.

Firstly you do a good job of comparing India's "plans" (and we all know what happens to much of them) with Pakistani actual orders.

You state "to be added subs" and "adding AIP".

Pakistan has had AIP subs for 20 years. Hangor class is being physically made as we speak in Chinese yards. So maybe Pakistan magicked the money out of nowhere, just like Pakistan was not supposed to have money for MILGEM, JF-17 etc. It's an old and tired argument that ensures any reply of yours seesm desperate.

Are Chinese subs better then Russian/Western subs? The US navy seems to rate them.

Yes, India has more resources but still flys MIG-21s, still has only 5 AEW planes, still uses Bren guns, still inducts 60 year old designed Chetaks/Cheetahs, still sends most ships out to sail without helicopters.

I am failing to see your point, do you actually have a point apart from ranting on about Indian superiority (considering the Covid deaths right now a brave statement to make)?

 

[Euro fighter]

I will overlook the patronising tone of your response.

Firstly you do a good job of comparing India's "plans" (and we all know what happens to much of them) with Pakistani actual orders.

You state "to be added subs" and "adding AIP".

Pakistan has had AIP subs for 20 years. Hangor class is being physically made as we speak in Chinese yards. So maybe Pakistan magicked the money out of nowhere, just like Pakistan was not supposed to have money for MILGEM, JF-17 etc. It's an old and tired argument that ensures any reply of yours seesm desperate.

Are Chinese subs better then Russian/Western subs? The US navy seems to rate them.

Yes, India has more resources but still flys MIG-21s, still has only 5 AEW planes, still uses Bren guns, still inducts 60 year old designed Chetaks/Cheetahs, still sends most ships out to sail without helicopters.

I am failing to see your point, do you actually have a point apart from ranting on about Indian superiority (considering the Covid deaths right now a brave statement to make)?

Dont compare until you have them .....Today you have 3 subs versis india having 20 including nuclear powered
My reservation re your finances is based on this UAE Extends Repayment Deadline for $2 Billion Loan to Pakistan (propakistani.pk)

Re your point about mig21 . I believe PAF has 9 squadrons still flying mirage3/5 and F7 out of 20 in total

The indians also fly some 500 MI17,, Dhruvs and Apaches too.

Covid deaths does not change reality of indian navy having ten times the resources of Pakistan navy literally .

This is not patronising its just harsh facts

 

[Yasser76]

Dont compare until you have them .....Today you have 3 subs versis india having 20 including nuclear powered
My reservation re your finances is based on this UAE Extends Repayment Deadline for $2 Billion Loan to Pakistan (propakistani.pk)

Re your point about mig21 . I believe PAF has 9 squadrons still flying mirage3/5 and F7 out of 20 in total

The indians also fly some 500 MI17,, Dhruvs and Apaches too.

Covid deaths does not change reality of indian navy having ten times the resources of Pakistan navy literally .

This is not patronising its just harsh facts

Harsh facts, that is something you seem keen on overlooking.

ON right now has 5 subs all with an average age higher then India's subs. (Harsh facts)
PN's 3 subs have AIP, India;s conventional subs have none (harsh facts)
Calling 40 year old Type 209s and Kilos "subs" is a push but lets give you that allowence.
PAF has 7 F-7/Mirage units but this is a sub thread, so try not to digress.


Not a question of resources really is it? It's how you use them. See Feb 27th for further details.

Saudi has 8 times the defence budget of Israel, but guess who I would back in any confrontation?

Simply put, counting tanks and planes does not make one a power, it takes much more then that.....


Go to bed kid.

 

[Euro fighter]

Harsh facts, that is something you seem keen on overlooking.

ON right now has 5 subs all with an average age higher then India's subs. (Harsh facts)
PN's 3 subs have AIP, India;s conventional subs have none (harsh facts)
Calling 40 year old Type 209s and Kilos "subs" is a push but lets give you that allowence.
PAF has 7 F-7/Mirage units but this is a sub thread, so try not to digress.

jus
Not a question of resources really is it? It's how you use them. See Feb 27th for further details.

Saudi has 8 times the defence budget of Israel, but guess who I would back in any confrontation?

Simply put, counting tanks and planes does not make one a power, it takes much more then that.....


Go to bed kid.

No your average age point is wrong completely .......... Now your ranting

Scorpene of which they have 5 are brand new and generation ahead in weapons sonar and stealth over your most modern sub the Agosta

And please dont get me going on Arihant & Arighat & Akula which you conveniently ignored

27th Feb will have no relevance in future ... surely you cant hide your weak financial position on this 5 mins of drop and run accross the LOC .

And your 100% correct numbers of tanks and planes as no relevance on naval build up. upto 2028

But you know what does have important factor sustained financial stability and future budget allocation potential.

Your weird skewed prediction is biased with all things going completely to plan for Pakistan and india having all its plans cancelled or delayed.

This is not what happens in the real world.

In the real world politics and resources and curve balls play a part.

Pakistan to induct 8 subs in 6 .5 years . ................Lets see .. ....

 

[Yasser76]

No your average age point is wrong completely .......... Now your ranting

Scorpene of which they have 5 are brand new and generation ahead in weapons sonar and stealth over your most modern sub the Agosta

And please dont get me going on Arihant & Arighat & Akula which you conveniently ignored

27th Feb will have no relevance in future ... surely you cant hide your weak financial position on this 5 mins of drop and run accross the LOC .

And your 100% correct numbers of tanks and planes as no relevance on naval build up. upto 2028

But you know what does have important factor sustained financial stability and future budget allocation potential.

Your weird skewed prediction is biased with all things going completely to plan for Pakistan and india having all its plans cancelled or delayed.

This is not what happens in the real world.

In the real world politics and resources and curve balls play a part.

Pakistan to induct 8 subs in 6 .5 years . ................Lets see .. ....

No, you talked about "harsh facts" but when I present them the essence of your reply is "we have more money". That simply makes no sense as you can see, last 20 years have shown the disasters in India defence procurement and the clusterf**k of home made projects.

Now for another dose of reality.

1) China is currently building submarines for Pakistan. Not only this, a few years ago it actually built another construction site so it can churn out more subs. Currently it is building

Read the below, it may teach you something

" The subs are known to include versions of the current Type-039A Yuan Class AIP (Air Independent Power) submarines. Evidence seen by the author shows that several boats are being constructed at once. This means a much greater capacity than many other submarine yards around the world. "

China Increases Production Of AIP Submarines With Massive New Shipyard - Naval News

New intelligence confirms that China has ramped up submarine construction at a new site near the city of Wuhan. The Type-039A Yuan class submarines are replacing older types in the Chinese Navy's (PLAN) order of battle. Together with new nuclear powered submarines they are helping to transform...

www.navalnews.com

2) Number of contracts India has placed for conventional subs after the Scorpenes? = ZERO.

If your only reliance is "curve balls" that will somehow stop Pak sub programme and magic another 8 subs out of think air for India, than good luck. I think a few months ago many Indians had the same attitide about Covid.....

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

guys can we stick to topic, this thread is not Scorpion Vs Augusta 90B for D!ck measuring contest, i think IN Scorpion is more advance but without the AIP system they will come out on the surface for recharging their batteries and hence being detected

Your Nuke subs is basically for China, you have enough conventional subs to deter Pakistan, and large mean it can have relatively more chance for being detecting, look a the USN Virginia class they are slighty bigger than conventional subs

I didn't realize that our missles were unidirectional. Indian nuke subs are smaller that virginia class. We can hide in the arctic circle and still fre pak. What good will 'detecting' do? Does PN have the ability to come to artic circle/ antarctica to carry out a strike?

 

[Yasser76]

I didn't realize that our missles were unidirectional. Indian nuke subs are smaller that virginia class. We can hide in the arctic circle and still fre pak. What good will 'detecting' do? Does PN have the ability to come to artic circle/ antarctica to carry out a strike?

Now you making up s**t again?

Untested subs and missiles with range from Arctic? Stop smoking that stuff.

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

Now you making up s**t again?

Untested subs and missiles with range from Arctic? Stop smoking that stuff.

No we built nuclear subs to loiter right next to your shoreline. Ignoramus.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

I didn't realize that our missles were unidirectional. Indian nuke subs are smaller that virginia class. We can hide in the arctic circle and still fre pak. What good will 'detecting' do? Does PN have the ability to come to artic circle/ antarctica to carry out a strike?

lol do you have any missile to attack Pakistan from Arctic circle, first develop those you imaginary missiles than talk can i post the specifications of your subs and Virginia class subs lol

 

[Yasser76]

No we built nuclear subs to loiter right next to your shoreline. Ignoramus.

So you point? Is there one? Pakistani subs can loiter near Indias, we do not need nuke subs to do that. As for the name calling, it's been reported.