India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[Guynextdoor2]

That deal was probably not salvageable, not like Antony made any progress with it either. He saw the same problem & he didn't want his reputation to be taken to the cleaners by the CAG. This has nothing to do with politics, the French were not ready to play ball & all the wishes wouldn't have helped.

I don't think CAG would have had a problem with this. One think that Antony did was to make sure this was done with transparence and no one has ever raised a finger on the process. I think we should have handled discussions with the French better. Now you may not agree with me on that but you will agree that any option would have been better than this. This is the most expensive option with little TOT, manufacturing benefits.

 

[NKVD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/586412470257844225

 

[Guynextdoor2]

@Bang Galore do you not belive then that a 126 order for EFT might have made sense? If you want to scrap Rafale because deal had become 'unsalvageable' as you said, then why go for 60. Give all to EFT?

That is right, Modi is putting his "hate" for congress, above national interest

Next, he will put his "hate " for muslims above national interest.

After that, his hate for christians will come into play.

Then his hate for women.

Then his hate for advani.

Did I miss anything ? Its all about Mudi

He is known to do this.

 

[Srinivas]

He doesn't want to risk IAF's depleting numbers. HAL will be hammered now behind closed doors for not having the standards required to make and maintain Rafale.

This break up seems to be the only sensible option if France reduced per unit price of the jet.

I think the deal is for 200 Fighter jets.

Since AMCA will take another 8 to 10 years, we need Rafale.

Buying 40 and manufacturing the remaining is a good option. HAL is building its capabilities these days.

 

[uparyupari]

@Bang Galore do you not belive then that a 126 order for EFT might have made sense? If you want to scrap Rafale because deal had become 'unsalvageable' as you said, then why go for 60. Give all to EFT?

He is known to do this.

Do you really think a 63 year old man who has devoted his entire life to the nation will let his "hate" guide him when it matters ?

You do not get to be the PM of a nation of 1.2 billion people by letting emotions control you. If a person cannot even control his emotion, how the hell can he control others ? A politician is nothing if not emotionally mature. And Modi is a TOP notch politician.

 

[Abingdonboy]

IAF is NEVER happy. Its futile trying to make them happy. Best to work for National interest and not worry about IAF "happiness" or DRDO happiness or HAL happiness.

By "happy" I mean the IAF are satisfied that they can meet their goals and fulfil their requirements vis a vis ensuring national security. Let's not forget their sanctioned Sqn strength figure of 42 was not pulled out of thin air but was sanctioned by the GOVERNMENT so the IAF is merely working to the force levels the politicians has approved. 60 Rafales won't even make that significant of a dent in the Sqn numbers shortfall.

I really dislike when politicians say to the military (in any nation) "make do with what you have" or start dictating to them what is best for them meeting their obligations- it never works out. I'm not saying this is what has happened here- far from it, but this seems to be what you are implying.

Dig a bit about our history of Mirage 2000 vs Mig 29 and our national confusion regarding what to buy and what to build. It is very similar to Rafale vs Pak Fa story.

I'm not too sure about this mate, yes a MiG-29 vs Mirage 2000 and Rafale vs PAK-FA/FGFA are both Franch vs Russian scenarios but I don't know if there is any link between the two situations, in fact I don't even see the Rafalr and PAK-FA/FGFA as being in anyway direct competitors for budget or attention in the IAF's eyes- they are planning for BOTH the induction of one does not come at the cost of the other. This is where the direct comparison from the past ends then because whilst the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 where of the same generation and had similar benefits and costs the same cannot be said for the Rafale/FGFA debate (not that there is any such debate going on anywhere outside of these forums).

 

[PARIKRAMA]

India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde
(Reuters) - India is negotiating to buy 63 Rafale fighter jets made in France for 7.2 billion euros ($7.65 billion) with a view to reaching a deal during the Indian prime minister's visit to Paris starting on Friday, French newspaper Le Monde reported.

"The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.

"The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source added.

Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA), which builds the Rafale, was not immediately available for comment.

India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde| Reuters

 

[Abingdonboy]

whoa whoa whoa, things are starting to make sense:

Concretely, the Indian government would activate an option contained in the main deal for 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not in India as provided in the main contract. So, New Delhi would would quickly dispose of the aircraft without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract.

The Rafale 'make in India ", with 108 aircraft would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.

L’Inde veut acheter au plus vite une soixantaine de Rafale


This means the MMRCA is still on, the 126 order is under negotiations BUT the follow-on units of 63 are being delivered upfront off the shelf and not at the back-end of production in India. This would make a hell of a lot of sense and ticks all the boxes- fast induction, address depleting Sqn strength, bring ToT, bring industrial benefits etc etc

IF Modi can pull this off and IF this is really what the GoI/MoD are planning I will not only be shocked by their forward thinking and pragmatism but in awe of the fact they sorted this entire mess out and did the seemingly impossible- came up with a deal that suits everyone.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Bang Galore do you not belive then that a 126 order for EFT might have made sense? If you want to scrap Rafale because deal had become 'unsalvageable' as you said, then why go for 60. Give all to EFT?
.

Yes & no. L2 couldn't have been considered & to eject the French & completely snubbing them would have had some consequences. Not like the cost of EF would have been too very different from Rafale. This deal was always going to be tough when the 2 costliest were shortlisted. Had it been a 3 way race with SH thrown in, it would have changed the equation forcing EF consortium & Dassault to drop their prices.

This was a mess, especially in the altered economic conditions of the last 2 years. These super expensive planes were never a realistic option, no matter how much the IAF was going crazy about them. I have always thought that the deal was crazy in being open ended about the costs and we are finally seeing (if true) the last act being played out in this charade.

 

[That Guy]

Do you believe J-10B might interest policy makers?

Perhaps, maybe Pakistan may look for other options, if financing allows it. Pakistan only needs about 35-40 initial advanced fighters to match the Rafales, simply as a deterrent.

If the gov and military feel that they must find an answer quickly, than the j-10 is going to be revisited, but if they feel they have time, they may visit other options.

 

[uparyupari]

India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde
(Reuters) - India is negotiating to buy 63 Rafale fighter jets made in France for 7.2 billion euros ($7.65 billion) with a view to reaching a deal during the Indian prime minister's visit to Paris starting on Friday, French newspaper Le Monde reported.

"The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.

"The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source added.

Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA), which builds the Rafale, was not immediately available for comment.

India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde| Reuters

40,000 to 45,000 Crores was converted to 45,000 Crores and then that was translated to 7.2 billion $, and now the 7.2 billion $ has mutated to 7.2 billion Euros

Amazing how the media operates and how things get changed with each telling

 

[PARIKRAMA]

India wants to buy it as soon sixty Rafale
The Monde.fr | 10.04.2015 at 10:05 • Updated 10.04.2015 at 10:46 | By Cédric Pietralunga , Dominique Gallois and Julien Bouissou (New Delhi, correspondence)


Reportedly, negotiations between the French and Indian governments were underway Friday morning April 10, for the purchase of three squadrons of Rafale, 63 planes, for $ 7.2 billion.

"The discussions lasted all night, they continued this morning , provides a close case. The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, Friday or Saturday. »

If the number of fighters finally ordered was not yet fully arrested Friday morning, the principle of this contract would be granted.

"Contract of the Century"
Specifically, the Indian government would play an option contained in the "Contract of the Century" 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not India as provided in the main contract.

New Delhi, this would quickly dispose of devices without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract. The unit cost of a Rafale produced in India has indeed proved superior to that produced in France, due to the need to establish a comprehensive network of contractors, non-existent there, and train teams.

The Rafale "Made in India", 108 copies are provided on the 126 contract, would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.

The Indian Air Force has, meanwhile, been constantly alerting the government about the aging of its squadrons, while the country faces frozen conflicts at its borders with Pakistan and China. It plans to withdraw from circulation four MiG-21 squadrons, five squadrons of MiG-27 / UPG, and a squadron of MIG 21 bis 2017, losing ten squadrons in just one year.

According to the Indian press, the purchase of 63 Rafale could be accompanied by the abandonment of the main contract. This information was not confirmed in Paris, Friday morning.


L’Inde veut acheter au plus vite une soixantaine de Rafale

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Due, $6B worth of money for preveting 'snub' ? These are countries and the French would have understood that we're trying to get the best out of out public money. Now we're saddled with a strange kind of deal without any benefits and overall higher costs.

India wants to buy it as soon sixty Rafale
The Monde.fr | 10.04.2015 at 10:05 • Updated 10.04.2015 at 10:46 | By Cédric Pietralunga , Dominique Gallois and Julien Bouissou (New Delhi, correspondence)


Reportedly, negotiations between the French and Indian governments were underway Friday morning April 10, for the purchase of three squadrons of Rafale, 63 planes, for $ 7.2 billion.

"The discussions lasted all night, they continued this morning , provides a close case. The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, Friday or Saturday. »

If the number of fighters finally ordered was not yet fully arrested Friday morning, the principle of this contract would be granted.

"Contract of the Century"
Specifically, the Indian government would play an option contained in the "Contract of the Century" 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not India as provided in the main contract.

New Delhi, this would quickly dispose of devices without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract. The unit cost of a Rafale produced in India has indeed proved superior to that produced in France, due to the need to establish a comprehensive network of contractors, non-existent there, and train teams.

The Rafale "Made in India", 108 copies are provided on the 126 contract, would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.

The Indian Air Force has, meanwhile, been constantly alerting the government about the aging of its squadrons, while the country faces frozen conflicts at its borders with Pakistan and China. It plans to withdraw from circulation four MiG-21 squadrons, five squadrons of MiG-27 / UPG, and a squadron of MIG 21 bis 2017, losing ten squadrons in just one year.

According to the Indian press, the purchase of 63 Rafale could be accompanied by the abandonment of the main contract. This information was not confirmed in Paris, Friday morning.


L’Inde veut acheter au plus vite une soixantaine de Rafale

So what does this mean- 126+ 63? I'm actually ok with that. These are great jets- lots made in the country and good to have in bigger nos. as the maintainence is common.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The ORIGINAL DEAL had the provision of 126 PLUS 63 planes as options

The deal size is getting BIGGER

 

[uparyupari]

I am speechless. What is going on ?