India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[Abingdonboy]

Means ZERO TOT and ZERO Make In Inida. I think this is pure poitics. This deal was done under congress so screw this.



I think this GOI screwing the deal because it was done under congress.

IF this was the Congress's "baby" then perhaps but the MMRCA purchase was always an apolitical process and zero ToT and zero Make in India would actually be a huge screwup for Modi a his critics could, rightly, point out the contradiction of this move and his "Make in India" campaign. Put yourself in his shoes, he is pushing HARD for "Make in India" (part of the "Make in India" declarations on their official website and in their advertisements is along the lines of "make anything from fighter jets to engines in India" ) and has been stung by recent reports that he has failed on the defence front with his "Make in India" ambitions.

I don't buy right now that no Rafales will be built in India, this is going to happen one way or another, the details of this are simply not in the public domain yet.

 

[Bang Galore]

I'm sure we can take large printouts of the blue print and hang it on HAL auditorium wall.

 

[ashok321]

We are all speculating dude, even the media

Do what pleases you.

 

[uparyupari]

if we negotiate with EF, then the french will agreed to us. now they know that india don't have a plan B. our lack of planing is their power.

This is Plan B.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

It had very little to do with the UPA (I'm not one of those blaming everything on corruption of the UPA), it wasn't about the selection process itself though some questions were raised about lifetime cost calculations. This was about the French jacking up the price after they were declared L1 to a point where the increased price they were asking for would have normally made them L2. Imagine explaining that to the CAG - Rafale is L1 but costlier than L2....

Yeah, and not one objective will be met when we buy them off the shelf. No TOT, no manufacturing, nothing. I'd point to the Sukhoi deal as the ideal- ordered in large numbers, customized superbly for us and in time HAL made entire aircraft. I think the Rafale could have given us that. Now with these kinds of joke decisions it'll affect our force strength only. This is what happens when people can't think of national interest over politics. Imagine what would have happened if ABVP had shelved the Sukhoi deal when he came to power?

 

[Tshering22]

Buying 60 fighter jets manufactured in France is not an issue, But Indian Aero space Industry needs technological edge, for that a partnership with Dassault is a good move, I hope the remaining Rafales will be manufactured here in India.

He doesn't want to risk IAF's depleting numbers. HAL will be hammered now behind closed doors for not having the standards required to make and maintain Rafale.

This break up seems to be the only sensible option if France reduced per unit price of the jet.

 

[Bang Galore]

IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons

• HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
  |
• Updated: Apr 10, 2015 Indian Air Force is pushing for direct purchase of two squadrons of French Rafale fighters to scale up its dwindling combat capabilities, especially against the backdrop of a combined threat from China and Pakistan, defence sources said.

• 
  The issue has gained momentum with Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday starting his two-day trip to France where he is expected to discuss the Rafale deal during meetings with the French leadership including President Francois Hollande.
  
  India requires 45 fighter squadrons urgently to counter a "two-front threat--from China and Pakistan--but has only 34 squadrons with about 18 planes each.
  
  HT reported on Friday that New Delhi is seriously considering the strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafale fighters through the government-to-government route to boost the IAF's combat readiness.
  
  India had selected Rafale fighters over Typhoons in January, 2012 after the French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder.
  
  The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.
  
  However, the two sides haven't been able to seal a deal yet.
  
  The decision to buy two squadrons directly reflects the urgency to boost the IAF's combat potential, the sources said, adding the IAF's traditional air superiority over Pakistan may be severely diluted if new fighters are not inducted at the earliest.
  
  14 of the IAF squadrons are equipped with vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter planes.
  
  In an exclusive interview to HT last September, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had said it was critical to keep the Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the IAF could not afford any more delays.
  
  The IAF had told a Parliamentary panel last year that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult to tackle, making a strong case for beefing up its force levels.
  
  India is years behind the Chinese military with the Communist neighbour currently outnumbering the country's combat power by a 3:1 ratio. India's hopes to bridge the gap in the next 15-20 years depend on availability of funds.
  
  Raha said at Aero India-2015 in Bengaluru that India had no Plan B if negotiations with Dassault Aviation to buy Rafale fighters collapsed.
  
  He underlined the IAF needed to induct medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) at the earliest to make up for the drawdown in its fighter fleet.
  
  "We are not working on Plan B. We only have Plan A (Rafale)," Raha said.
  
  He ruled out the possibility of buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if talks with Dassault Aviation failed. He said the Su-30 and the MMRCA complemented each other but could not replace each other.

IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons

 

[Abingdonboy]

In reality, this is just History repeating Itself

The same thing happened to Mirage 2000 deal decades ago and we got stuck with 50 odd aircraft's. Now its the same thing all over again and we get 63 Rafale .

The more things change, the more things remain the same.

EXCEPT the world (and India) today is very different to the 1980s, whilst the numbers are similar there is no direct comparison to be made really between the Mirage 2000 purchase and the Rafale purchase. I'm willing to put money on the fact the IAF will get a lot more than 60 or so Rafales, a LOT more. No way are the IAF interested in inducting another type of a/c with all the requisite infrastructure, maintenance and logistical headaches attached with this for merely 60 odd birds.

Remember the IAF wasn't happy with 60 Mirages to begin with, this is how we got this MMRCA drama- they wanted 126-200 more Mirage 2000s.

 

[uparyupari]

Yeah, and not one objective will be met when we buy them off the shelf. No TOT, no manufacturing, nothing. I'd point to the Sukhoi deal as the ideal- ordered in large numbers, customized superbly for us and in time HAL made entire aircraft. I think the Rafale could have given us that. Now with these kinds of joke decisions it'll affect our force strength only. This is what happens when people can't think of national interest over politics. Imagine what would have happened if ABVP had shelved the Sukhoi deal when he came to power?

That is right, Modi is putting his "hate" for congress, above national interest

Next, he will put his "hate " for muslims above national interest.

After that, his hate for christians will come into play.

Then his hate for women.

Then his hate for advani.

Did I miss anything ? Its all about Mudi

 

[Abingdonboy]

IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons

• HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
  |
• Updated: Apr 10, 2015 Indian Air Force is pushing for direct purchase of two squadrons of French Rafale fighters to scale up its dwindling combat capabilities, especially against the backdrop of a combined threat from China and Pakistan, defence sources said.

• 
  The issue has gained momentum with Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday starting his two-day trip to France where he is expected to discuss the Rafale deal during meetings with the French leadership including President Francois Hollande.
  
  India requires 45 fighter squadrons urgently to counter a "two-front threat--from China and Pakistan--but has only 34 squadrons with about 18 planes each.
  
  HT reported on Friday that New Delhi is seriously considering the strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafale fighters through the government-to-government route to boost the IAF's combat readiness.
  
  India had selected Rafale fighters over Typhoons in January, 2012 after the French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder.
  
  The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.
  
  However, the two sides haven't been able to seal a deal yet.
  
  The decision to buy two squadrons directly reflects the urgency to boost the IAF's combat potential, the sources said, adding the IAF's traditional air superiority over Pakistan may be severely diluted if new fighters are not inducted at the earliest.
  
  14 of the IAF squadrons are equipped with vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter planes.
  
  In an exclusive interview to HT last September, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had said it was critical to keep the Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the IAF could not afford any more delays.
  
  The IAF had told a Parliamentary panel last year that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult to tackle, making a strong case for beefing up its force levels.
  
  India is years behind the Chinese military with the Communist neighbour currently outnumbering the country's combat power by a 3:1 ratio. India's hopes to bridge the gap in the next 15-20 years depend on availability of funds.
  
  Raha said at Aero India-2015 in Bengaluru that India had no Plan B if negotiations with Dassault Aviation to buy Rafale fighters collapsed.
  
  He underlined the IAF needed to induct medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) at the earliest to make up for the drawdown in its fighter fleet.
  
  "We are not working on Plan B. We only have Plan A (Rafale)," Raha said.
  
  He ruled out the possibility of buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if talks with Dassault Aviation failed. He said the Su-30 and the MMRCA complemented each other but could not replace each other.

IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons

Hmmm, 2 Sqns is actually only about 20-24 birds (interestingly the exact number the ToI had reported that India had purchased a few weeks ago if you remember) and the only thing this article says is the number of Rafales to be bought off the shelf has increased NOT the MMRCA is scrapped or 24-60 is the total number of Rafales to be bought for the IAF.

 

[deckingraj]

IF this was the Congress's "baby" then perhaps but the MMRCA purchase was always an apolitical process and zero ToT and zero Make in India would actually be a huge screwup for Modi a his critics could, rightly, point out the contradiction of this move and his "Make in India" campaign. Put yourself in his shoes, he is pushing HARD for "Make in India" (part of the "Make in India" declarations on their official website and in their advertisements is along the lines of "make anything from fighter jets to engines in India" ) and has been stung by recent reports that he has failed on the defence front with his "Make in India" ambitions.

I don't buy right now that no Rafales will be built in India, this is going to happen one way or another, the details of this are simply not in the public domain yet.

however the criticism would be on whatever is available in the public...anyhow let's wait and watch...too much speculation right now!!

 

[Bang Galore]

Yeah, and not one objective will be met when we buy them off the shelf. No TOT, no manufacturing, nothing. I'd point to the Sukhoi deal as the ideal- ordered in large numbers, customized superbly for us and in time HAL made entire aircraft. I think the Rafale could have given us that. Now with these kinds of joke decisions it'll affect our force strength only. This is what happens when people can't think of national interest over politics. Imagine what would have happened if ABVP had shelved the Sukhoi deal when he came to power?

That deal was probably not salvageable, not like Antony made any progress with it either. He saw the same problem & he didn't want his reputation to be taken to the cleaners by the CAG. This has nothing to do with politics, the French were not ready to play ball & all the wishes wouldn't have helped.

 

[Pichkari]

In reality, this is just History repeating Itself

The same thing happened to Mirage 2000 deal decades ago and we got stuck with 50 odd aircraft's. Now its the same thing all over again and we get 63 Rafale .

The more things change, the more things remain the same.

May be its better this way.
The things worth getting from rafale tot were rbe2 asea, Spectra and engine but not after spending 20 billion.
Better to satisfy our short term needs and spend rest on developing indigenous tech.As i stated earlier 20 billion is almost 5 times the drdo budget.

 

[Abingdonboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/586412470257844225

 

[uparyupari]

EXCEPT the world (and India) today is very different to the 1980s, whilst the numbers are similar there is no direct comparison to be made really between the Mirage 2000 purchase and the Rafale purchase. I'm willing to put money on the fact the IAF will get a lot more than 60 or so Rafales, a LOT more. No way are the IAF interested in inducting another type of a/c with all the requisite infrastructure, maintenance and logistical headaches attached with this for merely 60 odd birds.

Remember the IAF wasn't happy with 60 Mirages to begin with, this is how we got this MMRCA drama- they wanted 126-200 more Mirage 2000s.

IAF is NEVER happy. Its futile trying to make them happy. Best to work for National interest and not worry about IAF "happiness" or DRDO happiness or HAL happiness.

They will find their own path.

Dig a bit about our history of Mirage 2000 vs Mig 29 and our national confusion regarding what to buy and what to build. It is very similar to Rafale vs Pak Fa story.

Which is why I said, the more things change, the more things remain the same.