India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[ito]

8 years of struggle now MMRCA end up as 60 Rafales (not 126).
More over there is some thing concerning about HAL since France refused to guarantee Rafales built by HAL. so is HAL compatibility is questionable?

Rafale is not for Pak. So be happy why burn.

 

[gslv]

Good if it happens...if India wants 5 gen Rafale. It can float a new contact. Anyway Modi has shown his business acumen by not going for 126 4.5 gen fighters when 5 gen fighters may be available by the end of this decade

5th gen Rafale, that ain't happening. It may be modified to home a few techs. That's all.

 

[Tipu7]

Rafale is not for Pak. So be happy why burn.

Right now they are not. But in case of war they will ............. I don't think India will put its Rafales against Chinese Su30 and J11b..............
remember the quote of Russian defense analyst? ''Chinese Sukhois will kill Rafales like mosquitos''

 

[ito]

5th gen Rafale, that ain't happening. It may be modified to home a few techs. That's all.

I was replying to Spark when he told that Rafale could mutate. If not Rafale, some other 5 gen fighter...may be PAKFA or even better AMCA

 

[SuperSubrayan]

Why Madface??

I would say that zero rafales are better than 60 with no ToT.




It would be good only if some of rafales are made in India and we get same ToT as before, something which seem unlikely with order of just 63 aircrafts.

! Pathetic ! Tot will fire missiles or Rafale jets ? Most advanced 4++ jet in the world .

Livefist (@livefist) on Twitter

Livefist
@ livefist 22m
FLASH:Top sources confirm: India &
France to announce brand-new deal
for 3 squadrons (60-63 aircraft) of
@Dassault_OnAir Rafale for the IAF.

@SuperSubrayan my sincere appologies..

I don't what you said it's 90+ posts . But apologise accepted

 

[anant_s]

Now unless those vendors set up shop in India, nothing changes.

Well Dassault as OEM has the intellectual Property Rights over those parts along with drawings and manufacturing process. There is no reason to believe why that can't be done in India if Dassault wishes to. It won't happen overnight, but (as was the case with Su 30 MKI), slowly one can increase indigenous content, Indian Industry can well do that.
& in this context that i believe, that India will ask France to Guarantee this ToT to India and use the initial number as Dangling Carrot infront policy.
Now that Dassault gets the choice of selecting its partner in India, one of the biggest issues of OEM standing guarantee for all planes to be assembled in India will be sorted out and maybe we can get speedier deliveries.
The reason i say all this is since Dassault is already executing orders for France and Egpyt deal coming up, it will not be possible to cover a possible Indian order with facilities in France alone. It will have to bring in assembly lines to India to meet the contractual timeline obligations.

 

[deckingraj]

the 8 years of delay is occurred due to the requirement of ToT to HAL. french was offered complete ToT to Indian privet company due to lack of trust in the quality of HAL, MOD rejected by saying that the ToT should be given exclusively to HAL.

That was not the only concern...the exhorbant amount of cost escalation was another....and plz don't give entire 8 years to this....Also there is difference in collaboration with Private company and a public company..Remember we have FDI of now 49% in a private company?? Secondly a lot has been invested in HAL and they can't be simply shunned out because Dafael doesn't have trust in HAL....They may have issues however keep in mind HAL has lot of stake in IAF....

now they are going for direct purchase. that means waiting for 8 years of that deep ToT was for noting. and the modi's make in india slogan is also gone. if MoD agreed to manufacture the jet in india with some privet companies, then it will be beneficial to our companies and even in case of sanction the supply of spares won't be stopped. now MoD is signing this contract in fever of french company.

I am not sure from the fear but we are not in a great situation...with Tejas being very delayed and the sorry plight of MMRCA...we cannot afford more here...As far as make in India slogan is concerned then yes it will take a back seat in this deal...however as said we don't have enough details here....who knows may be this is just a breather for IAF immediate concers??

if the jet is manufactured in india then it will help india to absorb the technology, create job opportunity and the grantee of supply of spares will be there.now we have zero gain, and we will be depend on french for the spare parts.

For all these reasons MOD pushing france was not a bad thing to do, no?? As far as fear of sanctions is concerned then France has done a decent job in the past...so let's wait till we get complete details...

 

[ito]

Right now they are not. But in case of war they will ............. I don't think India will put its Rafales against Chinese Su30 and J11b..............
remember the quote of Russian defense analyst? ''Chinese Sukhois will kill Rafales like mosquitos''

India has better SU 30's than Chinese SU 30's. On J11, coming from China, I cannot say the quality of these planes. Chinese are still nascent in fighter technology.

 

[Indian Patriot]

If true, than it is a major cut from the original plan. Why even bother with the Rafale than?

A lame face-saving gesture.

This whole thing is such an embarrassment. I won't be surprised if in future foreign companies don't take Indian tenders seriously.

Since 2000 Indian has been undertaking trials for acquisition of artillery guns. The dumb heads in the military and government still cannot decide after 15 long years which gun to purchase and the security of an entire country is supposed to rest on their shoulders. Any deal will take 10 years minimum in evaluation and negotiation. Foreigners kept their patience because at least the deal went through and they got paid money. Now it turns out India takes 10 years to say no.

Indian policy making is a joke.

 

[hkdas]

No ,,zero chance for that.For French the Rafale assembly line is not a loss.But if we looks for another option then diplomatic headache will begin .If it is Superhonet then it will be with Russia .If that is with EF then France ,US and Russia will turn against us .Plus we dont have time.EF is more expensive than Rafale .

This deal also has some advantages @SpArK mentioned that in here.

no diplomatic headache will be caused with french. this is their fault, we waited for 8 years.

 

[uparyupari]

Well Dassault as OEM has the intellectual Property Rights over those parts along with drawings and manufacturing process. There is no reason to believe why that can't be done in India if Dassault wishes to. It won't happen overnight, but (as was the case with Su 30 MKI), slowly one can increase indigenous content, Indian Industry can well do that.
& in this context that i believe, that India will ask France to Guarantee this ToT to India and use the initial number as Dangling Carrot infront policy.
Now that Dassault gets the choice of selecting its partner in India, one of the biggest issues of OEM standing guarantee for all planes to be assembled in India will be sorted out and maybe we can get speedier deliveries.
The reason i say all this is since Dassault is already executing orders for France and Egpyt deal coming up, it will not be possible to cover a possible Indian order with facilities in France alone. It will have to bring in assembly lines to India to meet the contractual timeline obligations.

You are wrong. Dassault Only has the IP on how those parts get used in Rafale. The company who own those parts, own the IP.

Still how does it matter if Dassault or anyone holds the IP ? That is irrelevant to the cause.

Decision to shift production to India is a Political minefield in france and it will destroy their aerospace industry which they have nurtured for decades. Its not going to happen just because we wish it. French jobs and the health of their aerospace industry is Far more Important, that is why this deal did not go though in the first place.

Nothing has changed since then.

 

[anant_s]

Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's procurement of a high tech fighter soon. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.

Do you believe J-10B might interest policy makers?

 

[nair]

The benefits of such deal

1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.
3. Hard bargain and not clause bound and price reduction.
4. ToT was offered for such a deal with Canada earlier, hence not an issue.
5 .French hopeful for further orders will be a bargaining chip.
6. Since the MMRCA deal is off, we are free to approach other manufacturers and we have data's of their jets based on evaluation.

This makes sense...... Especially when we know the capacity of our HAL.....

 

[hkdas]

That was not the only concern...the exhorbant amount of cost escalation was another....and plz don't give entire 8 years to this....Also there is difference in collaboration with Private company and a public company..Remember we have FDI of now 49% in a private company?? Secondly a lot has been invested in HAL and they can't be simply shunned out because Dafael doesn't have trust in HAL....They may have issues however keep in mind HAL has lot of stake in IAF....


I am not sure from the fear but we are not in a great situation...with Tejas being very delayed and the sorry plight of MMRCA...we cannot afford more here...As far as make in India slogan is concerned then yes it will take a back seat in this deal...however as said we don't have enough details here....who knows may be this is just a breather for IAF immediate concers??


For all these reasons MOD pushing france was not a bad thing to do, no?? As far as fear of sanctions is concerned then France has done a decent job in the past...so let's wait till we get complete details...

but at the end india get no technology. and 3 years of negotiation was for noting.
and the plan for using the technology from rafel deal on AMCA and pak fa are also gone. now we need to develop all the technology by our own.

 

[gslv]

TOT is on the table according to ndtv. It says that the direct purchase deal is more attractive.