India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[SpArK]

The benefits of such deal

1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.
3. Hard bargain and not clause bound and price reduction.
4. ToT was offered for such a deal with Canada earlier, hence not an issue.
5 .French hopeful for further orders will be a bargaining chip.
6. Since the MMRCA deal is off, we are free to approach other manufacturers and we have data's of their jets based on evaluation.

 

[anant_s]

dassault was ready to partner with a privet indian company and they also guarantee the quality if they built some parts of the jet with some indian privet company, it was MoD which rejected this and they said that they cannot divert from orginal conditions. and now they are building the jet in France. if MoD agrees with the dassaut to joint manufacture of rafeal in india with a privet company, it will be a great beneficial for indian companies.

That HAL thing complicated the issues.
But recent pitch by NDA government over Make in India might change the things here. Scrapping the tender actually gives Dassault a chance to assemble the things here in India (Hypothetically speaking they will not be bound with original tender conditions) with a private player of their choice. In this manner (assuming Offset clause remains intact in new contract), there will be a huge investment in Indian aviation industry, IAF will get its fighter of choice, Dassault will not have any issues and both governments can have something to smile about. My only concern is How much Technology Transfer will take place? my guess is that both governments might reach on some agreement with respect to critical technologies (engines, Radars, Avionics etc) which India might want to use for its own domestic products in future.
Lets see how things pan out.

If the news is correct, then ToT will be surely there .

That looks like the compromise reached between both parties. And (just a guess) that explains why only 60 fighters now. Based on how France keeps up with the schedule and promises, more pieces could be on order with India given a right of reserved price, for follow on order.

 

[It.is.all.mudi's.fault]

Not if the cost of ToT is REMOVED from the cost of purchasing those Rafale.

Then its just the cost of buying Rafale for the IAF.

Yes.

Remove TOT, Remove cost of Industrial management knowledge that would have been transferred to India, Remove cost of setting up indigenous assembly line and cost of Rafale would certainly fall drastically.

We needed to assemble western plane in-house to know how to manage production systems which would have benefited both LCA and AMCA project. Now that is all but lost.

 

[ito]

The benefits of such deal

1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.
3. Hard bargain and not clause bound and price reduction.
4. ToT was offered for such a deal with Canada earlier, hence not an issue.
5 .French hopeful for further orders will be a bargaining chip.
6. Since the deal is off, we are free to approach other manufacturers and we have data's of their jets based on evaluation.

Also no need to buy so many 4.5 gen Rafale when India should be concentrating on getting 5 gen fighters. 60 Rafale can fill the gap till India gets PAKFA or even better if it can develop AMCA

 

[SpArK]

Also no need to buy so many 4.5 gen Rafale when India should be concentrating on getting 5 gen fighters. 60 Rafale can fill the gap till India gets PAKFA or even better if it can develop AMCA

As France has no other 5th Gen plans, Rafale will mutate in the coming future into something different.
Believe that too !

 

[uparyupari]

That HAL thing complicated the issues.
But recent pitch by NDA government over Make in India might change the things here. Scrapping the tender actually gives Dassault a chance to assemble the things here in India (Hypothetically speaking they will not be bound with original tender conditions) with a private player of their choice. In this manner (assuming Offset clause remains intact in new contract), there will be a huge investment in Indian aviation industry, IAF will get its fighter of choice, Dassault will not have any issues and both governments can have something to smile about. My only concern is How much Technology Transfer will take place? my guess is that both governments might reach on some agreement with respect to critical technologies (engines, Radars, Avionics etc) which India might want to use for its own domestic products in future.
Lets see how things pan out.

Not happening. For one, dassault is ONLY the assembling company, the PARTS for the Rafale comes from a 1000 different vendors based in France and all over the globe. Its called a supply chain.

Now unless those vendors set up shop in India, nothing changes.

Finally, You do not need to buy aricrafts to get ToT for engines, Radars, Avionics etc. Just pay money to those companies and get the ToT. That is what Royalty and IP is all about.

Yes.

Remove TOT, Remove cost of Industrial management knowledge that would have been transferred to India, Remove cost of setting up indigenous assembly line and cost of Rafale would certainly fall drastically.

We needed to assemble western plane in-house to know how to manage production systems which would have benefited both LCA and AMCA project. Now that is all but lost.

Production management is not an extraordinary skill to have, we already have it. Production technology is the key. That we can PURCHASE independent of Rafale deal.

We can still assemble LCA and AMCA using western technology. What is stopping us from doing that ?

 

[hkdas]

You need to look at things from holistic perspective... Just imagine since when we are talking about MMRCA....8 years have passed and so far nothing concrete on the table...In its extensive trials Rafael came out to be a clear winner...so it ideally makes sense that IAF get its hands on Rafael...Even if you ignore that and start negotiating on Eurofighter then it will take another 2-3 years before things are thrashed out...because TOT is an absolute must(in that case as well), no?? Thereafter the work on delivery will start...So add another 5 years before IAF gets its first few Eurofighters....Imagine what will happen to our squadron strength by then??

In short apart from Rafael there is no other option...however if we go by what news is suggesting then may be we will get some breather on re-negotiation of TOT for remaining jets....

the 8 years of delay is occurred due to the requirement of ToT to HAL. french was offered complete ToT to Indian privet company due to lack of trust in the quality of HAL, MOD rejected by saying that the ToT should be given exclusively to HAL. now they are going for direct purchase. that means waiting for 8 years of that deep ToT was for noting. and the modi's make in india slogan is also gone. if MoD agreed to manufacture the jet in india with some privet companies, then it will be beneficial to our companies and even in case of sanction the supply of spares won't be stopped. now MoD is signing this contract in fever of french company.
if the jet is manufactured in india then it will help india to absorb the technology, create job opportunity and the grantee of supply of spares will be there.now we have zero gain, and we will be depend on french for the spare parts.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Trust Indian government to come up with such unlimited ch*tiyapa. All these talks of "mother of all deals" and wasting a decade on now meaningless trials and evaluations only to end up in a whimper. Let's see when these 60 rafales are inducted. Interesting to see how much credibility foreign companies give India after the scrapping of MMRCA deal.

 

[SrNair]

No ,,zero chance for that.For French the Rafale assembly line is not a loss.But if we looks for another option then diplomatic headache will begin .If it is Superhonet then it will be with Russia .If that is with EF then France ,US and Russia will turn against us .Plus we dont have time.EF is more expensive than Rafale .

This deal also has some advantages @SpArK mentioned that in here.

ball is still in our court. if french don't agree with india then we should go for EF or super hornet.

 

[magudi]

The deal had been allowed to get to this point by the previous government and then Antony wanted to do nothing with it & refused to sign. This government inherited the problem, That deal was dead because of the problems it was likely to cause in any CAG assessment and this government, especially Parrikar & Modi didn't want any of that headache. In the meantime, the Russians have probably offered some sort of a sweet deal and the government wanted to somehow get away from this budget killing monster. To do so bluntly would cause some bad blood with the French, this is probably a face saver for all concerned with the IAF too getting a part of what they wanted.

Not the ideal solution but a compromise solution.

Precisely put ^^^ this + dwindling numbers @hkdas

 

[Bang Galore]

Finally, You do not need to buy aricrafts to get ToT for engines, Radars, Avionics etc. Just pay money to those companies and get the ToT. That is what Royalty and IP is all about.

I for one would be glad if this story pans out. I never bought all the grand stories of how that ToT from this deal would change India etc. Especially in the face of all the stories of how little actual useful technology would be available. Better, as you say, to seperate the two. We can look at costs & get a better understanding rather than be fobbed off saying the extra amount was for this or that ToT. The aircraft was always a good one but the deal stunk.

 

[ito]

As France has no other 5th Gen plans, Rafale will mutate in the coming future into something different.
Believe that too !

Good if it happens...if India wants 5 gen Rafale. It can float a new contact. Anyway Modi has shown his business acumen by not going for 126 4.5 gen fighters when 5 gen fighters may be available by the end of this decade

 

[Tipu7]

8 years of struggle now MMRCA end up as 60 Rafales (not 126).
More over there is some thing concerning about HAL since France refused to guarantee Rafales built by HAL. so is HAL compatibility questionable?

 

[SuperSubrayan]

Breaking News : Deal is through . India to sign 4bl dollar rafale deal for 3 squadrons . ...

I really wonder 124 will get made at home in future as 124+63 was our plan for MMRCA ...

Bloody congress messed up with its 10 years of negotiations . With lots of kick backs in mind

 

[uparyupari]

I for one would be glad if this story pans out. I never bought all the grand stories of how that ToT from this deal would change India etc. Especially in the face of all the stories of how little actual useful technology would be available. Better, as you say, to seperate the two. We can look at costs & get a better understanding rather than be fobbed off saying the extra amount was for this or that ToT. The aircraft was always a good one but the deal stink.

We need ToT for LCA and AMCA, that way we get value for money and real ToT, and IAF is forced to respect their Indian wives and not hollywood divas