Every day articles on siachin are written and you pick up any random article of your choice
and put garbage hereIndias interest compromised in Siachen
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Every day articles on siachin are written and you pick up any random article of your choice
and put garbage here
ajtr
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you can simply get lost from my threads why you spouting your BS then here...........
there is difference this time all these are on track-2 negotiations.Every day articles on siachin are written and you pick up any random article of your choice
Phoenix89
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you can simply get lost from my threads why you spouting your BS then here...........
Kyu beta, have u signed MOU of Spouting BS here....
will u file a case on me because i started speaking BS which is your sole right?....Damnnn
Sorry, u Continue...
Srinivas
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If India and pakistan agrees on the disputes then you will run out of threads to start
This romance of India and Pakistan of yours is a biased one , you are doing injustice to Indian flag in your signature.
ajtr
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Swamy writes to PM opposing any move to demilitarise Siachen
Press Trust of India / New Delhi
Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy today urged Prime Minister Manmohan Singh not to accept any proposal to demilitarise the Siachen Glacier.
In a letter to Singh, he said Track 2 teams comprising military officers from India and Pakistan are learnt to have recommended to the Government to demilitarise Siachen Glacier area where "814 soldiers have died so far".
"I expect you will not agree to such an abject surrender of a strategic area," Swamy wrote.
The Janata Party chief also met Defence Minister A K Antony to raise the issue.
Press Trust of India / New Delhi
Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy today urged Prime Minister Manmohan Singh not to accept any proposal to demilitarise the Siachen Glacier.
In a letter to Singh, he said Track 2 teams comprising military officers from India and Pakistan are learnt to have recommended to the Government to demilitarise Siachen Glacier area where "814 soldiers have died so far".
"I expect you will not agree to such an abject surrender of a strategic area," Swamy wrote.
The Janata Party chief also met Defence Minister A K Antony to raise the issue.
ajtr
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Two nations & a glacier~I
Beyond Siachen’s ‘Strategic Ego’
By Abhijit Bhattacharyya
FIRST thing first; let us note the views on Siachen expressed by two retired soldiers-turned-scholars; a Major-General and a Lieutenant-General. The former finds Siachen to be a “buffer certainly, but strategically irrelevant”. Accordingly, it has only “acquired a strategic ego” but “does not have any strategic significance”. The retired soldier now feels that “the costs of holding glacial heights are huge….Thousands of lives have been lost and roughly 30 Indian soldiers die every year due to harsh weather and killer terrain”. Curiously enough, after stating that “thousands of lives have been lost”, the former two-star general quotes Defence minister Antony’s statement in Parliament in August 2012 to contradict himself “that 846 soldiers have died since 1984”! For the ex-soldier “the bottom line, however, is to bring troops down from Siachen. A compromise has to be hammered out as strategic sense dictates demilitarization”.
The focus of the retired Lt-General who, by his own confession, “has been part of Track II dialogue with Pakistan” is “murky political atmospherics between the neighbours”. Note the ex-soldier’s unique attempt to equate his own country’s enterprise (of which he has been an integral part for close to four decades) as “murky” thereby putting India at par with a Pakistan that has been hostile ever since 22 October 1947 (Kashmir invasion forgotten?). Perhaps the enthusiasm of the new-found status of a Track II diplomat compels the veteran general to seek a “resolution of the problem of Siachen” as he finds “exciting” a reported “peace overture by the **** army chief Kayani”.
Post-retirement, the general’s attention appears to have diverted from India’s security to economics as he feels that “for India the estimated annual financial burden of approximately Rs 1000 crore to maintain the desired force levels at Siachen is avoidable”. He refers to it as the “Siachen dispute”.
Understandably, both ex-servicemen are under a magnetic and mesmerizing effect of Aman ki asha (Hope for Peace) slogan of a group of people who have taken recourse to a “trust-development, trade, migration, visa, tourism, commerce and people-to-people contact” with a country which is being eschewed by the world for being the global factory of jihad, terrorism and fundamentalism.
One, however, is not surprised, being a follower of the forces of Indian history and the pathetic (should one say sympathetic!) record of the geographical politico-military history to guard and defend its western and north-western border from Alexander (327 B.C) to Kargil (1999 A.D) and beyond, an area where cross-border terrorists from Pakistan now have put Indian soldiers on tenterhooks.
In fact one is dismayed to find such an unusually high degree of pacifism and withdrawal in the post-retirement psyche of such senior and decorated soldiers of India. The retired officers need to be reminded that to suggest that Siachen is “strategically irrelevant” makes their views look “hollow and irrelevant” because after 35-38 years of practical wisdom on the hostile terrain their views matter for telling the truth and describing the reality with conviction. And not for parrotting the short-term political slogans at the behest of the country’s non-security amateurs.
In contrast with the views of the retired generals, the present Army chief, General Bikram Singh, appears crisp, focussed and clear about Siachen’s “strategic importance to India” as it is vital to hold on to current troop positions on the icy battlefield. General Singh is opposed to any troop withdrawal. “We must continue to hold” as Chinese soldiers continue to be “present in ****************** Kashmir”.
The question, therefore, stands “settled”, albeit temporarily. It is temporary because the image of a pacific India’s vacillation and appeasement politics (which is already well known) will in future cost New Delhi dear. Indeed, border security management has been a case of chronic failure for the Indian ruling class as it has traditionally been adept in dealing with the subject in a cavalier manner. They need to be reminded that security is not to be confused with, or confined to, the urban centres only.
The territory of India begins with the border and that cannot be left at the will and wishes of God Almighty alone. It hardly needs iteration that no nation in international relations (between sovereign states) can remain vacant or be left as “no-man’s-land” on the basis of “goodwill, good neighbourliness” or for the sake of “peace of our times” etc. The present standoff between Beijing and Tokyo around the remote, sparsely populated and tiny islands in East Asia or the Argentina-UK war over the Falkland Islands in 1982, more than 6000 miles away from London, are only two examples. The advocates of the “Siachen-withdrawal” may argue on the basis of “high altitude casualty” and the resultant “cost-push factor”. Such reasoning betrays a poor understanding of physical geography, geopolitics and the psyche of the hostile people operating around an eternally vulnerable and violent west and north-western frontier.
The psyche of an element of Indian dispensation should also be examined as it appears to play a vital role to re-shape Indian policy, unlike the days of the strategy-minded Indira Gandhi, arguably the main architect whose signal contribution in reshaping the contours of South Asia has not yet been fully understood, appreciated and appraised. In fact, one is alarmed over developments involving foreign affairs with little concern for India and Indians, entities on which rests the foundation, lives and livelihood of 1.2 billion people.
This brings us to the legal and constitutional obligations vis-a-vis the honest intent of India’s leadership to bring about a so-called solution of the Siachen “problem” which has often been referred to as “occupied” by India. Let us, therefore, examine Siachen through the prism of the Constitution and Parliament. For the information of those wanting to “bring down troops from Siachen and compromise on the question of “demilitarization”, Article 1(1) of the Constitution stipulates that “India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States” and Jammu & Kashmir (within the territory of which Siachen falls) is one of the 28 states which constitute the “membership of the Union & the Territory of India”. Significantly, while defining the “name and territory of the Union”, Article 1(3)(c) clearly stipulates that “the territory of India shall comprise”, amongst other things, “such other territories as may be acquired”. This means that the Constitution is transparent about “acquisition” of “foreign territories”, should the situation so demand, thereby turning it into a “part of the territory of India” under Article 1(3)(c) and by law admitting into the Union under Article 2.
Since Jammu & Kashmir is a part of India, Siachen automatically becomes a part of the Union of India. Hence any reference to its being “occupied” by India would be void ab initio. One has a simple question to ask. What is the official, legal and diplomatic stand of the Government of India regarding the cartography, political and physical maps and atlases of the world? Does the Government of India recognize or allow import or print of any map or atlas from any quarters with a “cartographic aggression or error pertaining to Jammu & Kashmir”? Has it ever tolerated any depiction thereof as a “divided territory”? Do the Customs officials in charge of import of books (included in which were the iconic Encyclopedia Britannica) and maps through the various ports, airports and land stations allow, or have ever allowed and cleared, such distorted maps? Then why this sudden confusion and contradiction between theory (banning and seizing books/maps/atlas) and practice (proposed withdrawal of border guards from one’s own official territory and professed public/national/international policy)? No doubt Siachen is a high-altitude post; but that is what the army of a nation is maintained and meant for; to guard, to maintain eternal vigilance. That is the “price of liberty”, as succinctly expressed by the legendary Professor Harold Laski.
(To be concluded)
The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College of India and a Member of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London
Beyond Siachen’s ‘Strategic Ego’
By Abhijit Bhattacharyya
FIRST thing first; let us note the views on Siachen expressed by two retired soldiers-turned-scholars; a Major-General and a Lieutenant-General. The former finds Siachen to be a “buffer certainly, but strategically irrelevant”. Accordingly, it has only “acquired a strategic ego” but “does not have any strategic significance”. The retired soldier now feels that “the costs of holding glacial heights are huge….Thousands of lives have been lost and roughly 30 Indian soldiers die every year due to harsh weather and killer terrain”. Curiously enough, after stating that “thousands of lives have been lost”, the former two-star general quotes Defence minister Antony’s statement in Parliament in August 2012 to contradict himself “that 846 soldiers have died since 1984”! For the ex-soldier “the bottom line, however, is to bring troops down from Siachen. A compromise has to be hammered out as strategic sense dictates demilitarization”.
The focus of the retired Lt-General who, by his own confession, “has been part of Track II dialogue with Pakistan” is “murky political atmospherics between the neighbours”. Note the ex-soldier’s unique attempt to equate his own country’s enterprise (of which he has been an integral part for close to four decades) as “murky” thereby putting India at par with a Pakistan that has been hostile ever since 22 October 1947 (Kashmir invasion forgotten?). Perhaps the enthusiasm of the new-found status of a Track II diplomat compels the veteran general to seek a “resolution of the problem of Siachen” as he finds “exciting” a reported “peace overture by the **** army chief Kayani”.
Post-retirement, the general’s attention appears to have diverted from India’s security to economics as he feels that “for India the estimated annual financial burden of approximately Rs 1000 crore to maintain the desired force levels at Siachen is avoidable”. He refers to it as the “Siachen dispute”.
Understandably, both ex-servicemen are under a magnetic and mesmerizing effect of Aman ki asha (Hope for Peace) slogan of a group of people who have taken recourse to a “trust-development, trade, migration, visa, tourism, commerce and people-to-people contact” with a country which is being eschewed by the world for being the global factory of jihad, terrorism and fundamentalism.
One, however, is not surprised, being a follower of the forces of Indian history and the pathetic (should one say sympathetic!) record of the geographical politico-military history to guard and defend its western and north-western border from Alexander (327 B.C) to Kargil (1999 A.D) and beyond, an area where cross-border terrorists from Pakistan now have put Indian soldiers on tenterhooks.
In fact one is dismayed to find such an unusually high degree of pacifism and withdrawal in the post-retirement psyche of such senior and decorated soldiers of India. The retired officers need to be reminded that to suggest that Siachen is “strategically irrelevant” makes their views look “hollow and irrelevant” because after 35-38 years of practical wisdom on the hostile terrain their views matter for telling the truth and describing the reality with conviction. And not for parrotting the short-term political slogans at the behest of the country’s non-security amateurs.
In contrast with the views of the retired generals, the present Army chief, General Bikram Singh, appears crisp, focussed and clear about Siachen’s “strategic importance to India” as it is vital to hold on to current troop positions on the icy battlefield. General Singh is opposed to any troop withdrawal. “We must continue to hold” as Chinese soldiers continue to be “present in ****************** Kashmir”.
The question, therefore, stands “settled”, albeit temporarily. It is temporary because the image of a pacific India’s vacillation and appeasement politics (which is already well known) will in future cost New Delhi dear. Indeed, border security management has been a case of chronic failure for the Indian ruling class as it has traditionally been adept in dealing with the subject in a cavalier manner. They need to be reminded that security is not to be confused with, or confined to, the urban centres only.
The territory of India begins with the border and that cannot be left at the will and wishes of God Almighty alone. It hardly needs iteration that no nation in international relations (between sovereign states) can remain vacant or be left as “no-man’s-land” on the basis of “goodwill, good neighbourliness” or for the sake of “peace of our times” etc. The present standoff between Beijing and Tokyo around the remote, sparsely populated and tiny islands in East Asia or the Argentina-UK war over the Falkland Islands in 1982, more than 6000 miles away from London, are only two examples. The advocates of the “Siachen-withdrawal” may argue on the basis of “high altitude casualty” and the resultant “cost-push factor”. Such reasoning betrays a poor understanding of physical geography, geopolitics and the psyche of the hostile people operating around an eternally vulnerable and violent west and north-western frontier.
The psyche of an element of Indian dispensation should also be examined as it appears to play a vital role to re-shape Indian policy, unlike the days of the strategy-minded Indira Gandhi, arguably the main architect whose signal contribution in reshaping the contours of South Asia has not yet been fully understood, appreciated and appraised. In fact, one is alarmed over developments involving foreign affairs with little concern for India and Indians, entities on which rests the foundation, lives and livelihood of 1.2 billion people.
This brings us to the legal and constitutional obligations vis-a-vis the honest intent of India’s leadership to bring about a so-called solution of the Siachen “problem” which has often been referred to as “occupied” by India. Let us, therefore, examine Siachen through the prism of the Constitution and Parliament. For the information of those wanting to “bring down troops from Siachen and compromise on the question of “demilitarization”, Article 1(1) of the Constitution stipulates that “India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States” and Jammu & Kashmir (within the territory of which Siachen falls) is one of the 28 states which constitute the “membership of the Union & the Territory of India”. Significantly, while defining the “name and territory of the Union”, Article 1(3)(c) clearly stipulates that “the territory of India shall comprise”, amongst other things, “such other territories as may be acquired”. This means that the Constitution is transparent about “acquisition” of “foreign territories”, should the situation so demand, thereby turning it into a “part of the territory of India” under Article 1(3)(c) and by law admitting into the Union under Article 2.
Since Jammu & Kashmir is a part of India, Siachen automatically becomes a part of the Union of India. Hence any reference to its being “occupied” by India would be void ab initio. One has a simple question to ask. What is the official, legal and diplomatic stand of the Government of India regarding the cartography, political and physical maps and atlases of the world? Does the Government of India recognize or allow import or print of any map or atlas from any quarters with a “cartographic aggression or error pertaining to Jammu & Kashmir”? Has it ever tolerated any depiction thereof as a “divided territory”? Do the Customs officials in charge of import of books (included in which were the iconic Encyclopedia Britannica) and maps through the various ports, airports and land stations allow, or have ever allowed and cleared, such distorted maps? Then why this sudden confusion and contradiction between theory (banning and seizing books/maps/atlas) and practice (proposed withdrawal of border guards from one’s own official territory and professed public/national/international policy)? No doubt Siachen is a high-altitude post; but that is what the army of a nation is maintained and meant for; to guard, to maintain eternal vigilance. That is the “price of liberty”, as succinctly expressed by the legendary Professor Harold Laski.
(To be concluded)
The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College of India and a Member of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London
kumarkumar1867
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ALL THE ARTICLES POSTED IN THIS THREAD ARE MERE IMAGINATIONS OR PERCEPTIONS OF AUTHORS.
NOTHING LIKE THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN NEAR OR FAR FUTURE FROM INDIAN SIDE.
SIACHEN IS NOT A PEICE OF LAND BUT A STRATEGIC LOCATION WITH VIEW OF MILITARY OR GEOPOLITY, DE-MILITARIZING IT OR HANDLING THIS TO PAKISTAN WILL BE UTTER SUICIDAL.
NO PRO-PAKISTAN GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE GUTS TO DO SO & CALL FOR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.
P.S : Indians should spare AJTR for posting these articles & stop talking against her, today neither she is insulting indians nor she is making fun of tragedy. Today is she is just a messenger bringing this articles to forum.
NOTHING LIKE THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN NEAR OR FAR FUTURE FROM INDIAN SIDE.
SIACHEN IS NOT A PEICE OF LAND BUT A STRATEGIC LOCATION WITH VIEW OF MILITARY OR GEOPOLITY, DE-MILITARIZING IT OR HANDLING THIS TO PAKISTAN WILL BE UTTER SUICIDAL.
NO PRO-PAKISTAN GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE GUTS TO DO SO & CALL FOR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.
P.S : Indians should spare AJTR for posting these articles & stop talking against her, today neither she is insulting indians nor she is making fun of tragedy. Today is she is just a messenger bringing this articles to forum.
illusion8
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Once Pakistan was also mere imagination ...Today its reality............................
You are derailing your own thread.
Pakistanisage
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I think you are being too harsh on AJTR. I don't always agree with her but her contributions to PDF are well known. Just because you don't agree with her is no reason for you to trash her like this. But then again, you are a newbee on PDF so you will learn with time that such personal attacks are not appreciated. What we want from you is to counter with sound logic and not with personal attacks.
Che Guevara
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Once Pakistan was also mere imagination ...Today its reality............................
T like you is also a reality..what to do...
kumarkumar1867
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We all remember here, how Pakistan took U-turn about its demilitarizing of siachen glacier in April 2012 after Gayari Tragedy. Even Pakistan which has waged 3 wars by itself & mastered in backstabbing insurgies dont relly on India.
How could a sane Indian even think of demilitarizing siachen?? MMS is much more aware than all these authors playing "could would" games. Pro-Greater India/Pro-Pakistan/Pro-Punjab is a different thing and being Anti-Indian is entirely different thing.
Found one interesting article, see future prospects that siachen can offer
Energy cooperation between India and Russia: Policy and approach | Russia & India Report
Be on Topic atleast when thread is started by You.
By the way if MMS/Congress does any such crap which can harm our own nation be ready for non-congressi or pan-hindu indian government in future.
People like A K Advani , Narendra Modi will form governments & imaginations which became realities will again become imaginations
How could a sane Indian even think of demilitarizing siachen?? MMS is much more aware than all these authors playing "could would" games. Pro-Greater India/Pro-Pakistan/Pro-Punjab is a different thing and being Anti-Indian is entirely different thing.
Found one interesting article, see future prospects that siachen can offer
Energy cooperation between India and Russia: Policy and approach | Russia & India Report
Once Pakistan was also mere imagination ...Today its reality............................
Be on Topic atleast when thread is started by You.
By the way if MMS/Congress does any such crap which can harm our own nation be ready for non-congressi or pan-hindu indian government in future.
People like A K Advani , Narendra Modi will form governments & imaginations which became realities will again become imaginations
Pakistanisage
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Norboo
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Wet dreams! This will never happen unless Pakistan agrees to authenticate the present ground position line. Even then it's risky.
Ok. Will the present ground positions be authenticated and signed by the respective defence ministers/Prime ministers?
But even if that is done, what if Pakistan secretly occupies the Soltoro Ridge. What then happens? Agreements etc are not worth the paper they are written on. So how would India get the Pakistanis out of Soltoro if it is later occupied by them? By sacrificing another 1000 soldiers? By running to the UN like cry-babies? By complaining to the world about Pakistan's perfidy? Who the heck would be bothered?
And the greatest irony then would be of seeing Pakistani soldiers sitting on top of the dominating Soltoro ridge and cocking a snook at India with smirks on their faces. And with the Chinese having the last laugh when they start constructing a road from the Karakoram Pass over Siachen and into Pak administered Kashmir. This road would then allow Pakistan to bring forward heavy artillery and weapons together with China.
All that crap written on paper that includes verifiables and promises would be buried in the snows of Siachen. And India would be left holding the can!
Amen!
Once Pakistan was also mere imagination ...Today its reality............................
You tool know why n whom created pakistan?
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