India ran to uncle sam to force Pakistan to retreat!

[Minho]

Judging by the fact that this thread is still running, it looks like Pakistanis still have not gotten over their defeat at Kargil.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Judging by the fact that this thread is still running, it looks like Pakistanis still have not gotten over their defeat at Kargil.

There were no win or loss in kargil war superpower solved that problems, and we still have lots strategic peaks at Kargil

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Judging by the fact that this thread is still running, it looks like Pakistanis still have not gotten over their defeat at Kargil.

judging by the fact that you are still coming to this thread, it is evident that you still have not gotten over the fact Pakistan occupied Indian territory for 3 months and India had to ask Uncle Sam to force Pakistan to retreat.

 

[Minho]

Still an Indian military victory

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Still an Indian military victory

Did not know hosting Indian flag on Indian territory is considered victory in India. lol
The fact that Pakistan prevented India from hosting Indian flag on Indian territory for 3 months is actually a huge VICTORY for Pakistan. lol

 

[Minho]

Did not know hosting Indian flag on Indian territory is considered victory in India. lol
The fact that Pakistan prevented India from hosting Indian flag on Indian territory for 3 months is actually a huge VICTORY for Pakistan. lol

By that logic, 1965 was an Indian victory because India occupied almost 1000 sq. miles of Pakistani territory before Tashkent.

Oh, and India did actually raise its flag in Pakistani territory there is even a thread on the subject. Why don't people use the search bar?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/reverse-kargil-capture-of-point-5310.449852/

 

[peagle]

Still an Indian military victory

Still an Indian military victory

In 1962, India went begging to Uncle Sam and the British (people they love to hate), begging them for money and weapons, which they got. Pakistan did India a favour by not attacking.

In 1999, they went crying to America and when we could not hit back they claim a victory, you can't claim anything when the other side can't fight. This war came to an end in Beijing and Washington, not on Kargil heights.

India hid in the Soviet lap, whilst accepting more aid money from America then was given to Pakistan, and yet they love shouting about non-alignment.

India is buried under a mountain of hypocrisy that is so high they cannot see the naked reality before their eyes. Stop your fantasies, and work towards making South Asia a peaceful place for everyone. Pakistan has moved on and wants to develop a better future, it is about time you guys did the same.

 

[Minho]

In 1962, India went begging to Uncle Sam and the British (people they love to hate), begging them for money and weapons, which they got. Pakistan did India a favour by not attacking.

In 1999, they went crying to America and when we could not hit back they claim a victory, you can't claim anything when the other side can't fight. This war came to an end in Beijing and Washington, not on Kargil heights.

India hid in the Soviet lap, whilst accepting more aid money from America then was given to Pakistan, and yet they love shouting about non-alignment.

India is buried under a mountain of hypocrisy that is so high they cannot see the naked reality before their eyes. Stop your fantasies, and work towards making South Asia a peaceful place for everyone. Pakistan has moved on and wants to develop a better future, it is about time you guys did the same.

Before Nawaz went running to Washington on 4th July, Tiger Hill, the most importnat peak at Kargil, was already captured. Nawaz was smart enough to see that the rest would fall. Kargil was both a miitary victory for India and a major diplomatic victory that got the world to support it on Kashmir.

Find me a single military scholar who said Kargil wasn't a military victory for India. Even many high-ranking retired military officers in Pakistan have said it wa a millitary defeat for Pakistan. Some members have already posted such interviews, so I will not repost them.

And I did not start this thread. I mostly stayed out of this, but I eventually decided I couldn't just not counter some of the delusions evident in this thread.

 

[delta2]

from 750 million muslims even if half of them pursue Islamic ruling system then you will have anarchy. Look how much 15 million muslims in Kashmir are able to create problem for India. NO way will Muslims want to be ruled by Hindus with their system even if they label it democracy. This is what British Empire realize when they were dividing their empire so they could indirectly control it.
And why would west want to create a regional super power which may challenge them? India is a loyalist to west and will NEVER pose any threat to them. Even before British empire Muslims and Hindus were in constant battles but only during brief period they decided to unite against ruthless empire which turned out to be failure.

I'd even go as far to say that modern day India is a low lever clerk at best for the powers that be. China was not suppose to rise so fast with such power.

The only thing holding the modern day India together as a state is the absolute incompetency, sleeping-on-the-job-as-always and just-wait-and-see strategy of the Pakistani deep state, elite, establishment and power brokers.

General Aziz was second in command to Musharaf,this is what he had to say.

The interview you posted must be viewed within the backdrop of the geopolitical and media warfare strategies of that period of time.

India never really had a chance against Pakistan even when Pakistan was blocked from accessing modern weaponry from most of the markets. Kargil was a walk in the park for Pakistan but a major injury for India.

 

[Minho]

I suppose losing wars is like a walk in the park for Pakistan then.

 

[Great Janjua]

We had occupied over 150km territory you guys managed to gain back around 15km the rest we withdrew from thank nawaz sharif and america otherwise we would have had wiped your 3 whole battalions

I suppose losing wars is like a walk in the park for Pakistan then.

 

[peagle]

Before Nawaz went running to Washington on 4th July, Tiger Hill, the most importnat peak at Kargil, was already captured. Nawaz was smart enough to see that the rest would fall. Kargil was both a miitary victory for India and a major diplomatic victory that got the world to support it on Kashmir.

Find me a single military scholar who said Kargil wasn't a military victory for India. Even many high-ranking retired military officers in Pakistan have said it wa a millitary defeat for Pakistan. Some members have already posted such interviews, so I will not repost them.

And I did not start this thread. I mostly stayed out of this, but I eventually decided I couldn't just not counter some of the delusions evident in this thread.

I have no problem with who started this thread, isn’t the idea of such forums to discuss and explore the truth. I find nothing wrong in that, any topic is as good as another.

Before Nawaz went to Washington, I am sure you realise the world still existed. There was a whole range of diplomatic activity and pressures being put on Pakistan, including from China, who wanted peace in the region, so that its development path is not affected.

It was already decided that Pakistan will pull back before Nawaz went to Washington; he went there as part of the diplomatic drama. America was the sole superpower at the time, so you had to play by their rules.

I did not dispute that it was a military victory for India. My contention was/is that this victory came because India went crying to America and because Pakistan had its hands tied by your savior, America.

Without America, India was given a beating that Indian Military still remembers; otherwise they would have had the guts to attack after standing with full deployment on the border for nearly a year in 2002.

 

[Minho]

I have no problem with who started this thread, isn’t the idea of such forums to discuss and explore the truth. I find nothing wrong in that, any topic is as good as another.

Before Nawaz went to Washington, I am sure you realise the world still existed. There was a whole range of diplomatic activity and pressures being put on Pakistan, including from China, who wanted peace in the region, so that its development path is not affected.

It was already decided that Pakistan will pull back before Nawaz went to Washington; he went there as part of the diplomatic drama. America was the sole superpower at the time, so you had to play by their rules.

I did not dispute that it was a military victory for India. My contention was/is that this victory came because India went crying to America and because Pakistan had its hands tied by your savior, America.

Without America, India was given a beating that Indian Military still remembers; otherwise they would have had the guts to attack after standing with full deployment on the border for nearly a year in 2002.

And do you think India wasn't going to get back its territory one way or another?
And how exactly did India "get a beating?" India lost just over 527 troops compared to 700 as per CIA and STate dep. estimates for Pakistan, despite Pak holding the strategic territory. Pakistan's objective of cutting off Indian supply to Siachen failed bigly. And India even occupied several peaks previously held by Pakistan(5310).

But all this has been discussed to death. There are countless threads on this subject, and no serious observer here argued Pakistan won militarily by any means.

I see you haven't fulfilled my challenge of showing any military expert, even within Pakistan, who classifies Kargil as an Indian defeat and/or Pakistani victory.

The fact is India won a big millitary victory and an even bigger diplomatic victory at minimal costs considering the circumstances. And it is a fact the highest peak in Kargil was taken by India BEFORE Nawaz went to the US.

And obviously, various countries were involved in trying to prevent a nuclear conflict. Clinton had actually repeatedly asked India to back down adn negotiate a ceasefire, but Vajpayee refused.

 

[Psychic]

As a matter of fact might as well Pakistan embrace India's removal of article which would ease massive liability from Pakistan's shoulder and no more would 250 million Pakistanis suffer as consequences for supporting 15 million IOKs.

That opportunity is long gone...today, they are after AJK as well. I need not reiterate the strategic significance of that region.

You won't have peace even if you hand over AJK on a platter to appease India, let alone forgetting about IOK. The real conflict is about India's hegemony in the region.

There was also a real risk that India might open up new fronts and/or otherwise escalate.

India couldn't do that when a large chunk of her forces and bofors were engaged in Kargil. In fact, a supporting thrust by Pakistan at that time had the potential to put India in a big trouble. It was not Pakistan which engaged in Kargil by exposing it's broadside, it was India.

Had we opened up another front, India would've found herself in hot water as the preparedness of her forces was not top-notch at that time(demonstrated clearly during op-parakaram). Mush Mafia however didn't have the stomach for a fight anymore and were demoralized when the peaks started to fall. His half-baked Kargil plan couldn't succeed without an all out war. He neither limited the battle by staying close to the LOC nor went in for the kill.

And to those who think that this issue can be/could've been resolved through negotiations; stop deluding yourselves.

 

[proudindian20]

And do you think India wasn't going to get back its territory one way or another?
And how exactly did India "get a beating?" India lost just over 527 troops compared to 700 as per CIA and STate dep. estimates for Pakistan, despite Pak holding the strategic territory. Pakistan's objective of cutting off Indian supply to Siachen failed bigly. And India even occupied several peaks previously held by Pakistan(5310).

But all this has been discussed to death. There are countless threads on this subject, and no serious observer here argued Pakistan won militarily by any means.

I see you haven't fulfilled my challenge of showing any military expert, even within Pakistan, who classifies Kargil as an Indian defeat and/or Pakistani victory.

The fact is India won a big millitary victory and an even bigger diplomatic victory at minimal costs considering the circumstances. And it is a fact the highest peak in Kargil was taken by India BEFORE Nawaz went to the US.

And obviously, various countries were involved in trying to prevent a nuclear conflict. Clinton had actually repeatedly asked India to back down adn negotiate a ceasefire, but Vajpayee refused.

Leave it dude! They are taught in their schools from childhood that they won Kargil War. After few decades, they'll even start saying they won 1971 war....the world knows the truth!