India - National Integration: The Way Forward

[KS]

I have had & have disagreements with Nemesis on a lot of issues but I must confess to agreeing with a couple of his points.
Very true. There are no truly secular parties in India & this includes the communists. It's a mockery to suggest that parties which ally with those like All India Majlis-e Ittihad al-Muslimin (MIM) & Indian Union Muslim League (IUML) are secular. The word secular has been so twisted that parties like the RJD, SP, BSP which are casteist in nature have been deemed secular so as to form a front against the BJP. Even the claims of the DMK with its anti-Brahminism is questionable. The position taken by the parties w.r.t. the Uniform Civil Code is a good indicator.However while the stand of the INC is purely out of political expediency, the BJP does have some members atleast who are ideologically nonsecular putting them in a different league.

I beg to differ here.
This is akin to the good-terrorist(Congress) and the Bad-terrorist(BJP) theory.

This is unfortunately true & was personally a great disappointment. The BJP was supposed to be tough on all terrorists not necessarily only on the Muslim ones. The stand taken by the BJP & articulated by Advani himself on the issue of Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur was a tragic eye opener. Those who died in Malegaon were Indians & their religion as well as those of the terrorist conspirators should never have concerned a party supposedly tough & uncompromising on terrorism.

This is wat the ATS faced after the initial hype and hoopla regarding Sadhvi Pragya and wasnt she let off..?

The Pioneer > Online Edition : >> ATS suffers major setback

Malegaon is not fully proved as the handiwork of the so-called Hindu terrorists.And im sure its just another gimmick of the congress to garner Muslim votes.

The BJP has one other problem which it shares with the communists. Every time they try & move closer to the centre of the Indian political space, they open up space for more extremist voices in the space that they have vacated. Fear of loosing the support of the hardline elements has forced the BJP to allow an relatively unfettered run in the states that they administer to lunatic groups like the Ram Sene, the VHP & the Bajrang Dal, the latter two also having the benefit of being connected to the same parent organisation.( A similar connection could be made with the communists reluctance to take on the CPI-ML)

This is a common misconception among us that BJP is just a political face of VHP,Bajrang Dal etc.
The only common thing is that they have their roots in the same parent org RSS.
And BJP has on more than one occasion ruffled the feathers of VHP,BD etc.

A good example was once provided by ek_indian regarding the destruction of illegal temples by BJP in Guj.

One of the reasons for the BJP coming to power was its alliance with other parties which was possible because of the comforting presence of ABV at the helm. Today few political parties see any reason to have a pre poll alliance with the BJP and many see them as carriers of unnecessary baggage (BJD, TDP are good examples) The only ones who are likely to stay are the Akali Dal & the Shiv Sena each capable of their own acts of lunacy . If the BJP had any sense, they would have made Nitish Kumar the Prime Ministerial candidate for the NDA, someone who is acceptable to the other parties whose support would be required to win an general election.

All u have said is true but false in the same vein.
I can see Arun Jaitley,Gadkari,Rajeev Rudy etcc as anything but communal.
But one thing i agree is that the BJP must work on its image that has been tarnished partly due to its own actions and partly due to the dedicated work of propaganda by pseudo-sickularists and our all-knowing media.

 

[KS]

Why is it better bro??Under BJP rule our Parliment was under attack..

And they defended it....caught the accused,convicted him....but has his sentence which was upheld by the honoroble SC been implemented by the Congress..?

Under the rule Kargil attack happend..

And they gave us a wonderful victory that we r still proud of.

the two worst attacks on our soil..

Mumbai attacks..?? wat action was taken except verbal rhetoric.?
Serial bomb blasts in Bangalore,Jaipur,Delhi etc....Wat action was taken except the repealing of POTA.?

Only courageous thing they did is conducting the nuclear experiment..what else can be said as their achievement?I know congress is also not good at national security but do you think BJP is good at it??I also used to love BJP but can you tell me any charismatic leader in their ranks after Vajpayee??can you tell me any bold foreign policy they had??

Dude u need to give them chance....they had power for just 5 years and ur judjing them based on that with the congress that has been in power fo the better part of 60 years.?

 

[scrumpy]

He was accused of proselytising (forcefully inducing) tribals to christianity and please dont deny such things dont happen in tribal orissa.

I have never understood how it is possible to forcefully convert someone. How can anyone make you believe what you don't want to believe?

If they offer someone a better life if they convert to another religion... then I say, great. Let them take it up. It is much more important to secure your life especially in the sort of conditions those tribals live in.

 

[KS]

I have never understood how it is possible to forcefully convert someone. How can anyone make you believe what you don't want to believe?

If they offer someone a better life if they convert to another religion... then I say, great. Let them take it up. It is much more important to secure your life especially in the sort of conditions those tribals live in.

Good question......there has been numerous cases of conversion just because of the inducements like gifts,cash etc in many tribal parts of India.
forced conversion doesnt mean forcing physically,but rather mentally.

And i agree the caste system in Hinduism is partly to blame.But that doesnt justify it either.
In many poor tribal communities the primary and main condition for receiving the benefits extended by missionaries is to convert first to Christianity.

Thats wrong in my opinion and causes resentment among tribals those who dont want to convert and is the primary reason for many attacks the most famous one being the recent Kandhmal attacks.

Source - Click here

Source - link 2

 

[Bang Galore]

Deleted. was meant to be a private msg.

 

[KS]

Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

She wasn't let off & now the evidence is piling up. In any case, that's for the courts to decide, not for Mr. Advani & co. to issue certificates

Now its my turn to say "Fair enuff" bro.

C'mon man ! read my post. Just saying that they feel empowered under a BJP government.

Thats the logical human nature bro given both of them have a common root - RSS.

But BJP are not the rubber stamps of VHP or their political face either as some make out to be.

Don't tell me you are going to compare them with Vajpayee. These guys can't even win their own seats(Rudy lost, Jaitley is RS member), how are they going to get 200 seats for the BJP. In any case, all they do is fight each other.

In that case our beloved Manmohan singh ji is also a RS member from Assam.
But does that stop me from liking him or doubting his leadership?? - NO -

You are one of the better posters around and you have a good sense of humour which you put to good effect in your replies ( loved the pseudo sickularists bit). Saw your posts on TNT today, thought that you really write well and with a good deal of sarcasm but you can't write 1 million good posts. Take your time.

thanx bro...coming from u...I take it as a compliment.
But for the 1 million post remark...(hehehe) cant help it with so much free time on hand and so many people here being 180 deg off my views...im duty bound to put forth my views vocally.But i can see ur point and i ll keep it in my mind.

p.s.: im not supporting anyone involved in terrorism..let them be Hindus,Muslims,Christians...i dont care..they r terrorists to me.

Wat pisses me is wen someone says minorityism is secular while majorityism is communal.

Im asking equal standards for everyone.

Did the same Digvijay Singh who makes it a part of his schedule to vist Azamgarh/Batla house residdents make any effort to visit the relatives of Sadhvi Pragya..?

this question not only needs to be answered but also should be delved into deeply.And the answer to this will satisfy me.

[/COLOR]
I'm done with this thread, enough of washing our dirty linen in this forum. Hence this PM.

That Mark the truth guy must be laughing his @ZZ of seeing us being diametrically opposite in views.
But hey thats our beauty and im sure all the members fighting (friendly) me would start supporting me/india once a Pakistani or a chinese guy jumps in and starts something against india.

Jai Hind.

 

[vandemataram]

It is without any doubt that BJP-Shiv Sena are the most communal/divisive parties in India. Their ideology and politics plays with the deepest insecurities of the public. Their success lies in the ability to successfully convincing the hindus that they are being threatened by a minority that is 1/4th its size. It is hard to believe but illiteracy plays a big role in it. Their only success on a national level has been in the time frame succeeding the Babri-Masjid Demolition and the Hindu-Muslim riots that followed( which were orchestrated by them to start with). I thank my stars that barring a brief period in the history of contemporary India, common sense has prevailed in Indian electorate. It is typical hate politics which tries to divide Hindus against Muslims ( and lately Christians in the Kandamal incident ) and Maharashtrians against North Indians. They are not much unlike Taliban in Pakistan trying to appeal to the conservative mass of the pakistani people.
They will only win on national level during the times of heightened communal/regional tensions ( which are sparked by them to start with ).

I would go on to say that these parties actually challenge the very idea of India and wat it has stood for in the centuries past.

A few things:

a) Do you support Uniform Civil Code? If yes why and if not why? 1/4th of the population (the minorities want equal opportunities), being at par with the majority, so India must go in for the Uniform Civil Code and I want to see people with your idea to come up and vote for it first.

b) Why should 1/4 minority be allowed the AIMPLB? Please give concrete reasons why it should not be repelaed immediately?

c) As an Indian (irrespective of religion) people have a right to read unbiased History. I have been denied that throughout my 12 years in a Public School (Central Board of Secondary Education).

I am not interested in:

1) FM Erwin Rommell
2) FM Bernard Mongomery
3) Kemal Ataturk
4) Gen Mohd Naguib
5) Gen Gamal Abdel Nasser

I am interested in the military history of India and its cultural aspects:

1) I want full chapters on all the wars India fought, won or lost
2) The Cabinet Mission and the Direct Action Day
3) I want to know about bigotry of Aurangzeb Alamgir, Mahd Bin Sam and Ahmed Shah Abdali
4) I want to know and understand the fact that the famous Somnath Temple had been looted by "some" invaders and also details of how they were doing it etc
5) I also want to know how was the Quwwat Ul Islam mosque was constructed.

Why do you think I should not get an opportunity to learn and understand basic historical facts, however unpalatable they may be to secularists.

Please duplicate your earlier suberb post for my post as well,

Thanks in advance

 

[vandemataram]

Apologizing will not bring back the people who died, but it is better than not apologizing at all. It is a shame tytler is roaming freely, but so is Narendra Modi, Thakeray and RSS chiefs.

Get your facts right about ommission and commission. I am sure it is not incomprehensible

 

[vandemataram]

Having said that, the BJP is a fascist organization that has no place in any civilized nation. In the BJP we have a party, whose founding ideologue, a certain coward called "Veer" Savarkar, openly idolized Mussolini, based his khaki based RSS morons on Mussolini's goons, openly supported the butcher of Muslims.
A .

Is there an Islamic organization in India which actually replicates the humanitarian aspect of RSS?

Mutahhida Majlis e Amal? MIM?

Any one single one?

 

[vandemataram]

I have never understood how it is possible to forcefully convert someone. How can anyone make you believe what you don't want to believe?

If they offer someone a better life if they convert to another religion... then I say, great. Let them take it up. It is much more important to secure your life especially in the sort of conditions those tribals live in.

Why should not be conversions totally banned? Why is Islam and Christianity so similar to imperialism?

The larger the better? Care to explain?

In our country where we have so much work to do to develop our country, what is the requirement for conversions?

Like the LoC why is the Congress government not allowing status quo to be maintained? Whoever belongs to whatever religion, please continue doing so?

Btw a person is Hindu if he is born Hindu...why dont your minority religion stakeholders follow the same stuff (pedestrian or cavalier brained) ?

 

[scrumpy]

Why should not be conversions totally banned? Why is Islam and Christianity so similar to imperialism?

The larger the better? Care to explain?

In our country where we have so much work to do to develop our country, what is the requirement for conversions?

Like the LoC why is the Congress government not allowing status quo to be maintained? Whoever belongs to whatever religion, please continue doing so?

Btw a person is Hindu if he is born Hindu...why dont your minority religion stakeholders follow the same stuff (pedestrian or cavalier brained) ?

Because I will not accept any restriction on my personal freedoms. I do not want any one telling me that I am not allowed to believe whatever I want.

Even though I hate the idea of someone preaching to me, I wouldn't advocate a ban on preaching too. For the same reasons of personal freedoms.

 

[Ras]

Funny to see people arguing about the Congress versus the BJP.

Both parties have nearly the same Foreign and economic policies in fact it is difficult to see actually where the two are even slightly different other than the rhetoric.

The BJP and the Congress feed on each other. One is on the right while the Congress is basically right-center. People on the right vote BJP and people who are afraid of the right vote for the Congress even though the Congress is actually right center!

Nemesis,

As India grows developed the country is actually moving to the right. Go to most middle class households and see how they feel about the minorities especially Muslims.It is the poor rural Hindu who had no problem with his equally poor Muslim neighbor. Almost every communal riot in India happens in the cities.

Jungle,

It is true that the minorities or more exactly the 14-15% Muslims in India cannot hurt the interests of the Hindus. However the middle class Hindu hates the fact that there is an "appearance" of minority appeasement.(In reality the fact is that Muslims are the worst off all Indians even below the low caste dalits so much for preferable treatment!).

It is laughable for anyone to claim that Muslims have done well under Congress.Under Congress rule their condition has deteriorated to the last class of India society. Most of the riots against Muslims have also happened under the Congress so it is not like the Congress is safeguarding Muslim lives and property.Muslims in India have fallen into the same vicious cycle that Blacks in the US have fallen into. At around 14-15% of the American population, Black people vote as a block for the Democrats who have done absolutely nothing for them similar to the Congress in India. Both the conditions of Blacks in the US and Muslims in India are due a sense of victimization and unscrupulous community leaders who encourage that.

 

[KS]

Because I will not accept any restriction on my personal freedoms. I do not want any one telling me that I am not allowed to believe whatever I want.

Even though I hate the idea of someone preaching to me, I wouldn't advocate a ban on preaching too. For the same reasons of personal freedoms.

i agree with u..but only upto the point that conversions should be allowed only if voluntary...not induced.

But where does one draw the line between forced and voluntary...it is this dilemma that is the cause of many problems including the much vaunted burning of graham staines.

Remember 1 rotten apple is enuff to damage the whole basket.

 

[chachachoudhary]

Indian Members, I think we have had enough arguments over this issue for now. So, let us give it a rest here only.

I must agree, we had a good discussion here barring few members who could not resist the urge to go personal.

However, from the discussion, the good things that emerged and hold promise for the future of india are:

1)Most members are in favor true "equality". Let us have one law for every indian citizen. I feel, when we fill a form, there should be only one column. Nationality: Indian. Thats all.

2)Most members agree that all political parties are indulging in vote bank politics to some extent.

3)Religion is a personal thing, not to be "displayed" or "flaunted" and everybody should have full right to honourably follow his faith without fear.

4)Conversions by means of inducement, taking advantage of illiteracy, poverty, violent force, and blackmail is totally unacceptable.

5)We (india) need a true visionary leadership to fight corruption, casteism, seudo-secularism, and all sorts of extremism.

6)The only way forward is trust building among ourselves.

7)We should be proud of our "own" history and "ideals/idols" and our coming generations should be taught history with a sense of true nationalism, true secularism, and moral values.

8)No doubt what color we represent, we all are proud of our "tricolor" and nothing comes before our nation, not even our religions.

9)We all respect freedom of speech. However, before expressing oneself we all should take precautions not to hurt others' sentiments and the best "censor" to do this is our own "conscience".

10)We will argue with each other as it is our birth right given to us by our "democracy", but we will not let anybody take advantage of our differences and when need arises, will stand as one monolith called

I N D I A

 

[lhuang]

That Mark the truth guy must be laughing his @ZZ of seeing us being diametrically opposite in views.
But hey thats our beauty and im sure all the members fighting (friendly) me would start supporting me/india once a Pakistani or a chinese guy jumps in and starts something against india.

Jai Hind.

*slinks into thread*

All Indians are stupid and inferior. You should follow Chinas one party way.

*slinks out of thread*

FLAME SHIELD UP