India - National Integration: The Way Forward

[vandemataram]

When the Christian missionary was was burnt alive with his family where were they??

They were rejoicing like many others in that village along with those tribal who killed him.They were rejoicing the over fact the foreign missionary was a monster who exploited poor tribal men and women deserved the brutal death he died and his sons death were unintentional collateral damage.

His wife still lives in that village in all these year after the death of her husband.But nobody tried to hurt her .

Just don't go by the what u read in the English new media and church propaganda ,if u care about the truth ,u better visit that village.

There are 27%(official figure) increase in the Christian population in Odissa in last three decades alone due rampart conversion done by Christian missionaries in its tribal belts mostly among the non tribal Schedule caste(SCs) .It has destroyed the social fabric ,...broken many families where one brother fights with his another who is a convert now.Besides the new converts with the resource backing of the church and taking advantage of the reservation for SCs have started behaving the new rulers over the majority schedule tribe(STs) of that region first creating a deep feeling of resentment and later on communal clashes where dozens of lost their lives.

Everybody read about Christians being killed in the English media , blamed the Hindu organizations RSS/VHP for the riots and even the pope shed few tear and but nobody got to know that it was the tribal who attacked the non tribals SCs and what the underlying reason behind it.

Few things very very clear,

No apologies for Graham Staines and his ilk and any other person or organization which are involved in coercion and false propagation fo rthe faith they represent and demean the religion of the land.

We must unite and get the Anti Conversion Act passed in the Parliament. Enough is enough, there cannot be any wilful and ignorant sympathy with people who are trying to toy with the religious sentiments of the UNion of India.

And all the Congress apologists please brace yourself for a couple of things and quicker the better

a) The Uniform Civil Code
b) Replealing of the Muslim Personal Law board.

We have many other minorities in India, they also have their aspirations in the name of their religion and asking for sops from the Government from time to time. And if we star to listen to all of them India is doomed forever.

Now it is time to stop all this. All religious conversions need to be stopped and not only that banned. Any person or organization which is canvassing for harvesting souls should be jailed for life.

Be what you are and be proud of it. I just do not understand what does the Government of India do in the name of Secularism?

And then we have minorities who ask us to provide them with equal opportunities and what is the cost involved, unequal playing field for the majority.

Someone said History repeats itself and we Indians do have the slightest idea on what we are sitting.

Gentlemen let us all go back to 1857 when the politico-religious fabric in India was very serene

Only to be disturbed by the goddamned agressive militant evangelist organizations..the first and the foremost reason for the religious character of the Uprising.

It seems we are heading the same way all over again...

 

[Indian_Idol]

and BTW as guys mentioned like there was forced conversion in orissa Graham Stains actually there was nothing like that. He just started a charitable trust which ensured the SC's for better education and health. when the results came positive, the upper caste hindu leaders lost their peasants for work for which they gave Rs.20 for a day. those SC's were exposed to the real world and they came out of slavery. by the atrocity of the hindu landlords NAXALS warned them and later killed a Hindu leader. the rest of the Hindu upper community turned the whole thing against the converted christians and to that Graham Missionary. those blood thirsty morons burnt him alive and tortured the converted Christians. being afraid of the hindu extremists the converted population is still living in the forest. so if they were forced to convert why they were living in forest and having a threat to their life??
the missionaries dont go there for conversion.they have build hospitals,schools and ofcourse churches. this thing was a real life experience of my friends who went there.. So i request you people to stop blaming these Missionaries, they are really doing a very hard work what we cant even imagine..

@ vandematarem:
dont rejoice in a man's death, someone may do the same for yours too...

 

[Indian_Idol]

All religious conversions need to be stopped and not only that banned. Any person or organization which is canvassing for harvesting souls should be jailed for life.

by which you will have to jail your parents first, because only they preach you first about a religion.If they can preach then anyone can.

i always wonder WTH people bring religion into everything. Its just belief. Why you have to take it into account for national integrity...

 

[vandemataram]

and BTW as guys mentioned like there was forced conversion in orissa Graham Stains actually there was nothing like that. He just started a charitable trust which ensured the SC's for better education and health. when the results came positive, the upper caste hindu leaders lost their peasants for work for which they gave Rs.20 for a day. those SC's were exposed to the real world and they came out of slavery. by the atrocity of the hindu landlords NAXALS warned them and later killed a Hindu leader. the rest of the Hindu upper community turned the whole thing against the converted christians and to that Graham Missionary. those blood thirsty morons burnt him alive and tortured the converted Christians. being afraid of the hindu extremists the converted population is still living in the forest. so if they were forced to convert why they were living in forest and having a threat to their life??
the missionaries dont go there for conversion.they have build hospitals,schools and ofcourse churches. this thing was a real life experience of my friends who went there.. So i request you people to stop blaming these Missionaries, they are really doing a very hard work what we cant even imagine..

@ vandematarem:
dont rejoice in a man's death, someone may do the same for yours too...

IndianIdol, isnt your user id very suggestive?

First things first:

a) Get to know the dictionary meaning of inducement; false or otherwise, coercion and forceful/forcibly. The differences are as diverse as the difference between a Han and an Uighur a Pashtun or an Uzbek.

b) If they are so interested to do charitable work , let them not include religion into this. Isnt it simple? Why do they need to bring together people from the villages for congregation where their age old beliefs will be trampled underfoot. With sermons related to you are losers, you are blind and cannot see the reality, Jesus is the lord and everything else. The netire point is there cant be any system in India which people take advantage of spreading religion.

One question to you, so what do you think about the rapidly increasing Christian population in the tribal districts of India.

Simply one word, their helplessness, lack of education, lack of jobs and poverty are being harvested to add to the number of growing souls of the world who have "embraced" morally higher religion. STOP religious conversions. If the people need to be ridden of the above the responsibility lies with the Government of India and not World Vision. Neither is it you nor me,

Now get of that moral high horse...

c) It is known fact that whatever "great", "tremendous" work these guys are doing are not free lunches. They are inducing the people with things which is very difficult for them to get, so easy targets.

d) They build churches first to get their strength and then schools and colleges and hospitals. If they are so concerned about humanitarian work let them remove the religious aspects from their endeavors. Keep it simple and straight and be like:

Child Relief and You...Naandi Foundation..

Do you think they do different work?

Again get off fast from that moral high horse of yours.

e) Religious conversions need to banned in India, we cannot let conniving people take advantage of the poor by promising them better lives if they come to the refuge of BABA. Need to stop the bullshit.

f) Religion remains the same for all people born within the religion.

 

[vandemataram]

by which you will have to jail your parents first, because only they preach you first about a religion.If they can preach then anyone can.

i always wonder WTH people bring religion into everything. Its just belief. Why you have to take it into account for national integrity...

There is a difference between what your religion teaches you and what mine teaches me and I cant stoop down to your levels. And I believe the difference must remian between you and me.

 

[vandemataram]

by which you will have to jail your parents first, because only they preach you first about a religion.If they can preach then anyone can.

i always wonder WTH people bring religion into everything. Its just belief. Why you have to take it into account for national integrity...

The question is not of integrity, I do not question the integrity of the peoples of India irrespective of their religion, though the facts and statistics prove otherwise.

The question is social and moral values. I am presuming you do not belong to the majority religion here in India.

And I also do not think it is very relaxing for you to think if one of your brothers/sisters convert to any other religion

 

[Ras]

Who cares what religion anyone converts to as long as it is not imposed on the others...religion is the opium of the masses.

 

[Indian_Idol]

a) false or otherwise, coercion and forceful/forcibly. T

this is not happening.its just propaganda by the upper caste to attract the offensive strength. if they are forced to convert they cant sustain with Christianity. thats for sure.

b) If they are so interested to do charitable work , let them not include religion into this. Isnt it simple? Why do they need to bring together people from the villages for congregation where their age old beliefs will be trampled underfoot. With sermons related to you are losers, you are blind and cannot see the reality, Jesus is the lord and everything else. The netire point is there cant be any system in India which people take advantage of spreading religion.

Simply one word, their helplessness, lack of education, lack of jobs and poverty are being harvested to add to the number of growing souls of the world who have "embraced" morally higher religion. STOP religious conversions. If the people need to be ridden of the above the responsibility lies with the Government of India and not World Vision. Neither is it you nor me,

the point you are trying to say is that Missionaries are exploiting the poor. and i disagree completely with this. if you have been in the real scenario you would be knowing what exploiting is. In our locality an coolie will get atleast Rs250per day but in orissa its nothing more than Rs20. if they ask more they are tortured like anything. which is one of the reason for the formation of NAXALS.

Unlike other religion Christianity is purely based on charity and love. and the spreading of religion will benefit more people in the long run. there is no personal use in gaining souls. the fact is our hardearned money is given for this poor people.what do we gain??? the human development in our country started with the Christian Missionaries(i'm not talking about the merchants) not with our Kings. Kerala is the only state with 100% literacy. how?

c) It is known fact that whatever "great", "tremendous" work these guys are doing are not free lunches. They are inducing the people with things which is very difficult for them to get, so easy targets.

d) They build churches first to get their strength and then schools and colleges and hospitals. If they are so concerned about humanitarian work let them remove the religious aspects from their endeavors

.

No church can be build without the strength. Only 40% of the money needed for the construction will be given by the church rest the followers put their money. the church building concept is same as that of Hindus they need a place to worship thats it.


e) Religious conversions need to banned in India, we cannot let conniving people take advantage of the poor by promising them better lives if they come to the refuge of BABA. Need to stop the bullshit.

India is not a religious country.

f) Religion remains the same for all people born within the religion.

as long as you want. Its a fundamental right. no one can decide others.

Christianity is not new to India its been in India before 2000 years.

 

[Indian_Idol]

And I also do not think it is very relaxing for you to think if one of your brothers/sisters convert to any other religion

to be honest i dont really have a problem in that. Its their own wish.. they are free to follow what ever they want.

 

[scrumpy]

The question is not of integrity, I do not question the integrity of the peoples of India irrespective of their religion, though the facts and statistics prove otherwise.

The question is social and moral values. I am presuming you do not belong to the majority religion here in India.

And I also do not think it is very relaxing for you to think if one of your brothers/sisters convert to any other religion

When talking of the majority religion you are talking about Hinduism here. One of the basic premises of Hinduism is that there is no one single path to God. This basic premise makes it very inclusive and there is nothing stopping you from worshipping Allah or Christ and not calling yourself a Hindu. I know a number of altars where Christ or Guru Nanak shares space with Ganesha, Krishna, etc. I know a number of devout Hindus who visit Muslim shrines.

While your religion itself is so open minded and generous, why do you wish to do define it within narrow boundaries? In my opinion, you must not be afraid for your religion at all. In most places, religion is losing ground. People are now more tolerant and accommodating towards other religions.

I think that large parts of the world is turning Hindu without actually realising it.

Disclaimer:
I do not believe in the existence of God as defined by all the various religions. Yes I count myself as a Hindu. My lack of belief in God no way stops me nor anyone else from labelling me as a Hindu.

 

[Novice09]

I do not doubt the ability of BJP led states like Gujarat to make economic progress. But i would point out that Gujarat had always been a relatively rich state in India since the past 100 years. This was before BJP came into power. This is not to say that people like Narendra Modi havn't done a good job on economic front. But still, i would prefer to live in a economically backward country than live in a rich one where 20% of the population fears for their lives.

Where do you want to live in that case??? Your answer will surely help me to know a country where there is no problem?

And beleive me 20% of the population pretends of fear for their life. live in a locality where these 20% are more than 50% and you will come to know that its you not these 20%(if you don't belong to their group) who fears for their life. If you don't beleive, go to and check it by your own... Live in aforementioned condition and you would feel that BJP ad RSS are like prophesier.

As for article 370, the will of the people of J&K demands that the article stays. The article should stay as long as the Kashmiris wants it to stay.

Why, arn't they Indian? Should be enforce Article 370 in all states because I personally wants several leverages of this article...

I do agree that Uniform Civil Code should be adopted. But still, the decision should be taken after addressing the concerns of the all the stakeholders.

Who said that all stake holders' concerns would not be addressed while creating a Uniform Civil Code???

Care to explain the part about lying down on the feet of the Minority. If caring for Hindus mean killing Muslims and Christians, than i do not want to be 'cared for'.

Yes, here you go:
>> How can you say that Muslims have first rights on all resourses?? Why not Hindus, Christians, Sikhs or others???
>> Every one is enquiring about Godhra roits, why don't you enquire about buring of 100 of karsevaks in sabarmati express???

If really 50% of those who belongs to 80% of your population wants Ram Mandir to be build, why don't you respect their feelings??? Did these 20% cared for your feelings while downing Mandirs??? huh

The constitution has given me a fundamental right to practice the religion of my choice. No one has the authority to tell any citizen on weather i can worship Ram, Allah or Jesus. BJP is not above the constitution.

When did BJP said that you should not pratice your religious conduct? They are aginst conversion
They also don't issue fatwas' which are against Indian constitutions

And wat do you mean by 'Muslims have the right to resources first '. Provide a valid link. This the typical BJP/RSS propaganda that increases passions for all the wrong reasons.

'Muslims must have first claim on resources'

Elections are won because of the mandate of the public. Most of them illiterate and poor. Care to explain why BJP was 1st thrown out of power and lost the next election by even a larger margin the second time?! It is because a common man wants to live in peace without the fear of Riots that he has nothing to do with. As for the 16th Lok Sabha election-only time will tell.

I would like to add it is convenient trying to give an opinion about Article 370 and minorities when you are not at the receiving end of the stick. Try stepping in the shoes of a Kashmiri or a Christian or a Muslim once in a while.

How would you feel when your complaint is not logged by the police because they fear that it could cause communal issues...

Who is Kashmiri??? Those Hindus who were murdered by the militants aren't Kashmiris???

 

[Novice09]

Ironically, he was supported in his second term by BJP and "secular" congress opposed him.

In india, honest people like him become a liability for political parties.

I would like to edit your comment:

In india, honest people like him become a liability for political parties like congress (I) They feel that corrupt Pratibha Patil is more suitable than Abdul Kalam...

congress (I) always wants their loyals at important posts so that they can act a rubber stamp when needed.

 

[Jungle]

I really didn't want to comment anymore on this thread and this will be my last reply.


And beleive me 20% of the population pretends of fear for their life. live in a locality where these 20% are more than 50% and you will come to know that its you not these 20%(if you don't belong to their group) who fears for their life. If you don't beleive, go to and check it by your own... Live in aforementioned condition and you would feel that BJP ad RSS are like prophesier.

I live in a city where more than 1/3rd of the population are Muslims and so are half my friends. I don't fear for my life in this city. I think it is u who needs to go and check for urself. Quit being so insecure.


Why, arn't they Indian? Should be enforce Article 370 in all states because I personally wants several leverages of this article...

Already gave the Answer to this, please go and read on the historical circumstances under which it was introduced. And why just point at Kashmir when such provisions are also in place in the north-east.


Who said that all stake holders' concerns would not be addressed while creating a Uniform Civil Code???

I would be glad if UCC would be removed.


Yes, here you go:
>> How can you say that Muslims have first rights on all resourses?? Why not Hindus, Christians, Sikhs or others???
>> Every one is enquiring about Godhra roits, why don't you enquire about buring of 100 of karsevaks in sabarmati express???


What he meant was that their needs to be a greater investment for the upliftment of minorities. On similar lines as Dalits. They rank close to Dalits on social indicators. It is imperative government needs to invest more for their upliftment. Learn to read what people say in context.


If really 50% of those who belongs to 80% of your population wants Ram Mandir to be build, why don't you respect their feelings??? Did these 20% cared for your feelings while downing Mandirs??? huh

Can you give me a link saying 50% of Hindus want Ram Mandir?! These 20% weren't even born when the Ram temple was demolished. Why to hold them responsible! Next u'll say we should invade England and colonize it!

When did BJP said that you should not pratice your religious conduct? They are aginst conversion
They also don't issue fatwas' which are against Indian constitutions


Yes they don't issue fatwas,they just go and rape nuns and kill tribals and force them to reconvert even when they treated them like low life outcastes before they converted in the first place.

No one has the rite to tell me if i can convert or not. I come from a Hindu family and if god forbid, i feel like converting to a Muslim , Christian or even if i start worshipping the Flying Spagetti Monster, who the hell are they to tell me that i cannot. I'll believe and worship what i want to worship. It is a right given to me by my country's constitution and they are not above the constitution.



How would you feel when your complaint is not logged by the police because they fear that it could cause communal issues...

This issue is faced by Minorities as well.At least, Hindus are not killed by the police during riots.

Who is Kashmiri??? Those Hindus who were murdered by the militants aren't Kashmiris???

I was just pointing that you should try looking at things from the point of view of the Minority as well. Hope that is not too much to ask for.

Anyways, i wouldn't refute your next argument as this thread is turning into a religious confrontation. Hope you can understand.

 

[Raghu]

and BTW as guys mentioned like there was forced conversion in orissa Graham Stains actually there was nothing like that. He just started a charitable trust which ensured the SC's for better education and health. when the results came positive, the upper caste hindu leaders lost their peasants for work for which they gave Rs.20 for a day. those SC's were exposed to the real world and they came out of slavery. by the atrocity of the hindu landlords NAXALS warned them and later killed a Hindu leader. the rest of the Hindu upper community turned the whole thing against the converted christians and to that Graham Missionary. those blood thirsty morons burnt him alive and tortured the converted Christians. being afraid of the hindu extremists the converted population is still living in the forest. so if they were forced to convert why they were living in forest and having a threat to their life??
the missionaries dont go there for conversion.they have build hospitals,schools and ofcourse churches. this thing was a real life experience of my friends who went there.. So i request you people to stop blaming these Missionaries, they are really doing a very hard work what we cant even imagine..

@ vandematarem:
dont rejoice in a man's death, someone may do the same for yours too...

Thats the delicious Church propaganda u have been fed u ever willing to enjoy !!!




In large swathe of the Indian tribal belt of Chattishgarh, Jharkand,parts of Odissa and Bengal , which used to be pristine jungle and still is to a large extent , there have been no problem of feudalism and exploitation of peasants by landlords ever as these are forest land not exactly suitable for agriculture .

So is the case about truth behind pretense of upper caste Hindus.

There areas are populated by tribals,schedule tribe(STs) mostly.The rest are Schedule caste people brought in by the Britishers who used to them for cleaning jungle to make roads and mining activities.To out it literally,a landlord(village head) of tribal village lives on the top of a tree like rest of the tribal folks.Its missionaries who have grabbed forest lands using the Schedule castes converts they had brought in during the British days and its they who dominate the tribals for so long leading up to numerous back clash from the tribals in recent times as they got aware of their political rights by VHP activists .

Thats why u see BJP,a hindu middle class party usually do well in the election times among the tribals of Chattishgarh(BJP ruled state),Jharkand(had a colilation govt till few days) or western Odissa(BJP has little presence in costal odissa) .



Naxals agitation of Andra Pradesh or Bengal may be related to landholding and feudalism ,but neither the poor condition of the tribals nor Maoists problems are related to this.Its basically about total lack off development and absence of the governance the since the beginning which is now being exploited by the Maoist to their advantage.

 

[indushek]

^^^^^
Very well said. I never get the concept on how a majority can be threatened and needs a party to look after its interest. I would really like to know the value system of all BJP lovers here. What interests of the majority is the BJP looking after? To put it better, wat interests of Hindus are being threatened by the minorities?

Has anybody told you that the Minorities are the ones threatening the majority? Its the leaders running with their jhola's for votes after these thats threatening Majority not their existence but their development.

BJP has never said its the caretaker of Majorities has it? Its the work of RSS.

BJP is the one asking for Uniform Civil Code, has Congress got the guts to do it?

What is your Value system as a Congress Lover?? emergency riots, vote bank politics and over 50 years of corruption is it?