'India more important for US than Pakistan'

[roadrunner]

What's a bit odd is that noone bothered to take note of greenhouse emissions before. But now of course, as industrialization moves East, there's a big uproar about greenhouse gases. Not only that, the consumers in the US are the ones purchasing the goods from the developing nations that produce the Greenhouse emissions. In effect, the consumers are the ones driving the production of gases. Anyway, zraver, I take it your stand on US greenhouse gas production is equally critical, being the biggest producer of greenhouse gases? (Let's just assume you're American for the fun of it with no links to India ).

 

[roadrunner]

The Taliban is an ISI creation, Al Queada is a shared mistake of the ISI and CIA. The CIA just gave missiles to the ISI who in turn only gave them to the groups they favored which often turned out to be the most radical of the foriegn jihadists, not local Afghan muhajadeen because Pakistani's generally do not like afghanis.

Good grief. What a pathetic bit of analysis! Taliban are a conglomeration of ex Mujahideen fighters that were supplied with weapons by the US, through Pakistan to fight the Soviets. Even Mullah Omar was on the anti Soviet side at that time. The radicalization that produced the Taliban was Saudi funded, Pakistani mediated, and American driven. The coming together of the Taliban (or these ex Mujahideen) was done in Afghanistan with the support, not only of Pakistan, but of the Afghans themselves, including Karzai. Think of it like this, if there had been no war in Afghanistan, there would be no Taliban simply because the indoctrination had not occured, so all this stems from the Soviet war (hopefully you follow the connection). The reason "Pakistanis do not like Afghanis" is the most ludicrous thing I've heard for a while considering many relations live either side of the Durand Line, though personally I have not much liking of the Tajik and Uzbek Afghans.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The US has always risen to defend Pakistan except when your country committed genocide or broke the NPT.

Lets not get carried away and invent "crimes" that "should not have been "defended" by the pure and righteous USA - well, pure and righteous other than when initiating wars and stealing land from Mexico, intervening with bloody and disastrous consequences in certain Latin American countries, supporting regimes in said countries that caused "genocides" and crimes against humanity. Pretty selective country, when it comes to bandying about "noble ideals".

Democracy! bays the self anointed paragon of "peoples power", but let us overthrow Mossadegh first! Let us overthrow Arbenz! Let us scheme against Chavez! Bring in the Somozas, Noriega, Pinochet!

Democracy and freedom please!

Shameless hypocrisy and double standards know no bounds here.

Just so you know, Pakistan was never a signatory to the NPT. How does one "break" a treaty one was never part of?

As for your "genocide" accusation, no doubt there were atrocities committed, some by Pakistan, for which Musharraf offered his regrets, and for which Pakistanis are shameful, but there are two sides to every story, and there is an excellent discussion you can read on that issue here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/1870-creation-bangladesh.html

Speaking on a talk show, Ekushey Shomoy, on private satellite television channel Ekushey Television on Friday (Oct 26), Shah Abdul Hannan also expressed doubts that three million people died in the war and supported a Pakistani report according to which only 26,000 people or less died during the Liberation War.

The following is a transcript of his comments made on the talk show:

Denial of war crimes
At the Simla Conference between India and Pakistan, Pakistani soldiers were released as war prisoners, not war criminals. So, I am in agreement with (Jamaat-e-Islami secretary general Ali Ahsan Mohammad) Mojaheed that there are no war criminals in the country.

There was an Awami League government until 1975 and there was another Awami League government in 1996, under which I worked as a secretary and I was even close to the administration. But they never thought of trying war criminals. Another major party BNP was in power during the rule of Ziaur Rahman and later came to power thrice, and at no point did they try to hold trials of the war criminals.

Since no one is making any claim and there are no cases filed with the court - Bangladesh government is the entity that can file a case and has never filed a case against anyone - I will continue to say there are no war criminals in this country until the government files a case against anyone.

Civil War, Liberation War
I frankly think it was a liberation war but it was also a civil war not only in the sense that it was between West and East Pakistan but also because it was a fight between political forces supporting a untied Pakistan and an independent Bangladesh.

If they can prove that these things (war crimes) were done in 1971, let them take it to court. The constitution mentions that Bangladesh was created through a liberation war - yes, it is true. But plenty of people say it was a civil war.

I know this much that in 1971 there was a civil war... Fine, it was also a Muktijuddha... From what I have read in foreign newspapers and encyclopaedia, it was a civil war and most people did not call it a "struggle for freedom". But there is no doubt that it was a genuine freedom fight by the people of Bangladesh. It was an excitable time and the population was also more or less divided. So, those who thought at that time that it was not right to break up Pakistan with the help of India held the view that they should stay on the side of the then Pakistan administration politically, not for violence. The other side thought they should unite with India to gain independence. There were a lot of excesses back then - not only members of one community died - Hindus died, Muslims died, Biharies died, Bangalees died, wives died, children died, women died, men died...And the number, I do not know anything about three million deaths. There was no survey in 1972, not in 1974, and never. That is why these numbers are allowed to be mentioned. I urge the current government to conduct a survey so this problem is solved. It is not right to ask this to the caretaker government, ask this to the next elected government.

Bangalees were on both the sides, involved in the events before December 16, 1971. You have to judge in that political context. I think those who were against the idea of Bangladesh have shifted from that position. A lot of them are my good friends - they are patriotic, they defend Bangladesh, they are in a struggle to build Bangladesh and protect it from the attacks of other countries.

On genocide
Genocide is a matter of definition. Not everything is genocide. The United Nations has not called this genocide. We can call this genocide or whatever. I know in the context of 1971, there was a civil war...and another war between India and Pakistan. Both Razakars and collaborators were killed as well as freedom fighters. It was a struggle between ethnic and political forces...Bangalees and Biharis were also fighting each other. So, it was not genocide. This is my personal opinion.

 

[Keysersoze]

No I dont have any idea. I am just the dimwit Pakistani who didnt migrate to the west.

Sorry but I am tired of people like you pulling this out of your *** Just because I live in the west it doesn't make you right. Why don't you and others of your ilk make Pakistan better and not rely upon the Ex-pat community to bring in money then? And while you are at it have a free education and medical system for all. Show the world how smart you are. Let me know how you get on with that genius.

And what tightrope is Musharraf on? he has the power of the army behind him and the blessings of Mullahs to be in power. And after the coup, which civilian politician was left in the country? Bhutto or sharif? All these other characters are his stooges.

Simple....If he faced up to America too hard they would have potentially bombed and damaged Pakistan. if he sides too much with America the extremist element would jump upon the idea. Whats your solution since

Gen Babar has correctly called him corrupt and coward

Hmmm you mean former interior minister in the Bhutto Government Babar? I am sure his thoughts are unbiased and he is a beacon of truth and light

Frankly the civilians were more corrupt and a total waste of time.....

 

[zraver]

I think you have misquote, it is 117 men to 100 women, hence more men than women. Not the other way round.

The reason for this is because Chinese couple prefer boys over girls. The government have already implemented measures to balance this problem. Offering incentives for couples who have girls and penalties for abortions of girls.

oops, soory I was backwards there, but correcting the problem will take longer than it took to create it. it is far easier to abort than raise a child and the PRC government is fightign the strength of tradition.

In the future, the gap would be closer as China progresses.

Perhaps, but since a generation has effectively been gutted it could take generations to fix. Losses of females are the hardest to replace because thier job cannot be duplicated the way any man can provide sperm.

Also, please bear in mind, the link is an editorial. Credibility is debatable.

True enough but it is hardly the only source.

I think you need to consider the population of China. Therefore the chances of cancer and the number of people having it would be much greater than other countries with much lesser population.

Another point, China is a developing country, the healthcare would not be as good as more modern developed countries as the West. However, China is improving the healthcare as the economy grows.

China is not a developing country. it has the worlds second largest economy and single largest reserves of cash. it could pay for health care, it chooses not to.

China's fast economical growth does come at a cost of the environment. The government is aware of this and are making plans to deal with it.

making plans and acting on them are two different things, those of us in the West have been fighting that battle for decades. Your politicians at the local level are still judged by economic growth. They sacrifice the environment for economic numbers.

China is a large country, riots could happen. People are easilly provoked and mislead in some cases. Most important is to have it under control and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future.

Again, I like to highlight, the source you provided is from 2004, thats like 3 years ago. There are no riots now.

And Iran doesn't have homosexuals

WP: Birth control sparks riots in China - Washington Post - MSNBC.com

Agnostic,

Just so you know, Pakistan was never a signatory to the NPT. How does one "break" a treaty one was never part of?

beucase international treaties don't just apply to those who sign them. technically Pakistan as a non-signatory state can do what it wants. And all was good as long as Pakistan did the same thing as Israel and kept quiet. But once they detonated a device the US had its hands tied by wha tthe treaty enforced on it.

Roadrunner,

Good grief. What a pathetic bit of analysis! Taliban are a conglomeration of ex Mujahideen fighters that were supplied with weapons by the US, through Pakistan to fight the Soviets. Even Mullah Omar was on the anti Soviet side at that time

The majority of the Taliban are post Soviet withdrawal religious students from Pakistani madrassas. Clean up your own mess.

Agnostic,

Lets not get carried away and invent "crimes" that "should not have been "defended" by the pure and righteous USA - well, pure and righteous other than when initiating wars and stealing land from Mexico, intervening with bloody and disastrous consequences in certain Latin American countries, supporting regimes in said countries that caused "genocides" and crimes against humanity. Pretty selective country, when it comes to bandying about "noble ideals"

Would rather the USA had gone toe to toe with the USSR instead of using proxies? I mean the two most powerful nations in history lobbing nukes back and forth vs proxy battles around the globe that only killed thousands, not billions.

Roadrunner,

1- I am American and white with no connection to India.

2-

What's a bit odd is that noone bothered to take note of greenhouse emissions before. But now of course, as industrialization moves East, there's a big uproar about greenhouse gases. Not only that, the consumers in the US are the ones purchasing the goods from the developing nations that produce the Greenhouse emissions. In effect, the consumers are the ones driving the production of gases. Anyway, zraver, I take it your stand on US greenhouse gas production is equally critical, being the biggest producer of greenhouse gases? (Let's just assume you're American for the fun of it with no links to India ).

My views on greenhouse gasses are in a state of flux. I am leaning more and more towards a man made cause for climate change but am not yet convinced. For the record I wish US companies had stayed home paid the money to upgrade the factories and industries and left the developing world alone. I am a fair trader not a free trader and what we have with globalization is neither fair nor free. it is a form of economic colonialism for the most part.

 

[roadrunner]

o
Roadrunner,
The majority of the Taliban are post Soviet withdrawal religious students from Pakistani madrassas. Clean up your own mess.

It's very easily proveable that this statement is incorrect. Even if you did the calculation, there'd be 1980-1989 (10 years) when Taliban were being produced from the US-Saudi-Pak run schools, and 1989-1994 (5 years) when Taliban were being produced with the same ideology. Which period sounds like it would have produced more Taliban to you (let's ignore the fact that it would be impossible to just end the teaching in these schools from 1989 onwards). Majority, minority numbers are difficult to estimate, as you have done in your baseless statement, but one thing is 100% for sure, the majority of the Taliban commanders (who were responsible for the Taliban's creation), were educated in these Saudi-US-Pak religious schools. Mullah Omar attended Pak madrassahs in the 80s when the Soviet war was on, and he ended up with the Taliban. Hekmatyar is another example, Mullah Dadullah another, list is endless, all these people fought the Soviets, backed and trained by the US, indoctrinated by Saudi-financed schools, and then became leading commanders of the Taliban. Most of the commanders of the Taliban were educated in such Pak madrassahs DURING the Soviet war (it's not difficult to search for proof of this). They then moved back to Afghanistan after the war was over and started another war, during which time they established hundreds more Madrassahs in Afghanistan to teach their foot soldiers. These Afghan madrassahs had very little to do with the US or Pakistan, but for that fact that the people establishing them (the Taliban commanders), all got their ideology from a nexus of Pak-US-Saudi backed religious schools. Very common knowledge.

To clean up the mess of the Madrassahs would have taken decades anyway. There was a lack of foresight from the Pak government, and the US didn't care once the Soviets were defeated. To expect the ideology to just vanish within a couple of years, was and is ignorant.

Roadrunner,

1- I am American and white with no connection to India.

Iran really does not have homosexuals. But this is not important, I couldnt care less what you are.

2-

My views on greenhouse gasses are in a state of flux. I am leaning more and more towards a man made cause for climate change but am not yet convinced. For the record I wish US companies had stayed home paid the money to upgrade the factories and industries and left the developing world alone. I am a fair trader not a free trader and what we have with globalization is neither fair nor free. it is a form of economic colonialism for the most part.

Alright, then at least you can see the hypocrisy of issuing statements against other countries of this, when your own country is the world's biggest producer and consumer.

 

[Sena Lee]

oops, soory I was backwards there, but correcting the problem will take longer than it took to create it. it is far easier to abort than raise a child and the PRC government is fightign the strength of tradition.

The government is working towards closing this gap.

Perhaps, but since a generation has effectively been gutted it could take generations to fix. Losses of females are the hardest to replace because thier job cannot be duplicated the way any man can provide sperm.

There have been measures set up to solve this. It is natural that fixing problems takes time, you just need patience.

True enough but it is hardly the only source.

My position is clear, the sources from Atimes are editorials.

China is not a developing country. it has the worlds second largest economy and single largest reserves of cash. it could pay for health care, it chooses not to.

China is still a developing country, that is a fact.

making plans and acting on them are two different things, those of us in the West have been fighting that battle for decades. Your politicians at the local level are still judged by economic growth. They sacrifice the environment for economic numbers.

Well, you still need to plan inorder to act, that is a logical approach. When there is economical growth, there comes sacrifices. Like I said, the government is making changes.

And Iran doesn't have homosexuals

I don't understand this in relations to what we are discussing.

 

[zraver]

Iran really does not have homosexuals. But this is not important, I couldnt care less what you are.

Sorry, no matter how you try and take my words out of context I don't want a date with you and am happily married.

Alright, then at least you can see the hypocrisy of issuing statements against other countries of this, when your own country is the world's biggest producer and consumer.

can you see yours?

I don't understand this in relations to what we are discussing.

Iran's president recently stated that there were no homosexuals in Iran the way you stated there were no riots. Both statements were obviously false.

 

[SherwaniAK]

And roll over and if we tell you to, play dead or even die. And if you won't do it for us you'll do it for China. Pakistan's freedom of action extends only as far as its Great power master wishes it too, and then calls it to heel like a good dog. But don't feel bad its not personal, its just the way life is for nations occupying a place the great power finds strategic.

No I m not, but your sovereignty doesn't concern me: you can go this way or that way but only as far as your leash allows.

No they are not, they if they were the government would not be cracking down. Why are they not free? because the Great Powers wish it to be restricted.

The US has always risen to defend Pakistan except when your country committed genocide or broke the NPT.

Dont compare yourself with China. china has never put conditions for cooperating with us. Tell me when has China enforced sanctions on Pakistan?

Our sovereignt should not concern you. You are right here,but our general musharraf himself is the turncoat over here. I dont blame you for our spineless generals.

US has never risen to protect us. Please tell me where you were in 1971 when India took away half our country.

 

[SherwaniAK]

Sorry but I am tired of people like you pulling this out of your *** Just because I live in the west it doesn't make you right. Why don't you and others of your ilk make Pakistan better and not rely upon the Ex-pat community to bring in money then? And while you are at it have a free education and medical system for all. Show the world how smart you are. Let me know how you get on with that genius.

Simple....If he faced up to America too hard they would have potentially bombed and damaged Pakistan. if he sides too much with America the extremist element would jump upon the idea. Whats your solution since


Hmmm you mean former interior minister in the Bhutto Government Babar? I am sure his thoughts are unbiased and he is a beacon of truth and light

Frankly the civilians were more corrupt and a total waste of time.....

Take your pounds and shove it in your queens panties! Do you know how platry is expats contribution to Pakistan compared to Pakistani ppls taxes to govt?
And about our smartness, we have developed niuclear weapons, ballistic missiles and cruise missiles on our own w/o any outside help. We also have tanks, infantry weapons etc amde in Pakistan

Iran faces USA attack but dont accept rubbish terms, nor did iraq. Look at Cuba, and venezuela. Its our military general who is sold out.

Look at Babar's war records and then dare to speak. And what makes you think Musharraf is the word of god himslef? Any evidence? That ****** liar denied imposing emergency till yesterday.


As regards civilan politicians try to look beyond bhutto and sharif.

 

[Sena Lee]

Iran's president recently stated that there were no homosexuals in Iran the way you stated there were no riots. Both statements were obviously false.

I think you have misread my quote. Please read again.

This was my quote:

China is a large country, riots could happen. People are easilly provoked and mislead in some cases. Most important is to have it under control and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future.

Again, I like to highlight, the source you provided is from 2004, thats like 3 years ago. There are no riots now.

Where exactly in this comment that I have denied riots.?

Key part is highlighted.

Again, please read and digest my comment before replying.

 

[zraver]

Quote:
China is a large country, riots could happen. People are easilly provoked and mislead in some cases. Most important is to have it under control and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future.

Again, I like to highlight, the source you provided is from 2004, thats like 3 years ago. There are no riots now.

Bolded part is what I was reffering to, because there have been riots in 2007.

 

[bhangra12345]

Just out of curiosity I typed: "riots in china in 2007": in google

the quoted part in google gave about 22 lakh posts.
Eg the first link:
Thousands of Chinese Peasants Riot over Brutal Birth Control Campaign

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

beucase international treaties don't just apply to those who sign them. technically Pakistan as a non-signatory state can do what it wants. And all was good as long as Pakistan did the same thing as Israel and kept quiet. But once they detonated a device the US had its hands tied by wha tthe treaty enforced on it.

Your hands were tied because of your own domestic laws, not because Pakistan "broke a treaty" as you initially argued. I may be wrong on this, but where exactly does the NPT require member states to sanction countries that pursue nuclear weapons programs, that are not signatories?

Would rather the USA had gone toe to toe with the USSR instead of using proxies? I mean the two most powerful nations in history lobbing nukes back and forth vs proxy battles around the globe that only killed thousands, not billions.

Yes! I would have rather preferred that the two of you obliterated each other, and save the rest of the world a lot of pain and suffering in the process. If you want to argue in favor of the interventionist policies that were pursued, then stop whining about terrorism, becasue your chickens are coming home to roost. And at the very least, lets dispense with this "oh we are the greatest freedom and liberty loving nation on the earth" hogwash, since it is quite obvious from US policy and its effects, that the country is nothing but a self serving, arrogant and bullying entity, that has caused incalculable bloodshed and suffering.

 

[bhangra12345]

Your hands were tied because of your own domestic laws, not because Pakistan "broke a treaty" as you initially argued. I may be wrong on this, but where exactly does the NPT require member states to sanction countries that pursue nuclear weapons programs, that are not signatories?

Let us make one thing clear about this. what are sanctions? They are simply saying that "I will not trade normally with you", i.e. India is sanctioning Pakistan or Pakistan is sanctioning India.

It is their prerogative on how to trade with you. They need not give any reasons whatsoever.