India may sign interim deal for 18 Rafales, also deal for Aerial tanker

[forcetrip]

What nonsense is this from a "think tank" member.


@Topic, seems like a win-win deal- the negotions for the industry/ToT keep going as this is where the real sticking points lay. It's clear by this the GoI/MoD aren't just letting themselves be steamrolled by Dassualt into accepting just any old deal. And this will relive some pressue on the IAF's FIghter SQDs. If the deal for 108+ Rafales is signed in 2014 also just a few months later by the next GoI then things look pretty rosy.


A strangely pragmatic move by the GoI/MoD.


There has been a LOT of conflicting reports on this deal of late though so let's just wait and see.....

Its just that I hate searching for the things I have said a few years ago and re posting them for reference today, but if you are happy with this deal than who am I to sourpuss your mood. Ignore me and move along.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Its just that I hate searching for the things I have said a few years ago and re posting them for reference today, but if you are happy with this deal than who am I to sourpuss your mood. Ignore me and move along.

Firstly you're FALSLY making out a deal has been signed. Secondly you're making out you know the exact details of this yet-to-be-signed deal. Thirdly you're somehow coming to the conclusion this STILL UNSIGNED deal is bad for India but in fact this news is quite the opposite.

What poosible issue could you have with this suggestion?

 

[forcetrip]

Firstly you're FALSLY making out a deal has been signed. Secondly you're making out you know the exact details of this yet-to-be-signed deal. Thirdly you're somehow coming to the conclusion this STILL UNSIGNED deal is bad for India but in fact this news is quite the opposite.

What poosible issue could you have with this suggestion?

Why are you assuming I have an issue with this deal? I say that would be a great deal. Me being a Pakistani that is. Buying 18 aircraft from France in one deal and then asking them to another deal to start factories to produce the other 108 aircraft. That is not how business is done when you need tech that you do not have. The 18 aircraft looks like Frances way of cutting its losses. Thats just global business. I will bookmark this just in case I might have to eat my words. I will come apologize if this actually goes through other than I predict. You can remind me of that as well.

 

[Sergi]

What nonsense is this from a "think tank" member.


@Topic, seems like a win-win deal- the negotions for the industry/ToT keep going as this is where the real sticking points lay.

It's clear by this the GoI/MoD aren't just letting themselves be steamrolled by Dassualt into accepting just any old deal. .....

How it can be a win-win deal ???
Its only win for Dassault if it ever happen like said in article.
We lose the bargaining chip if we agree for 18 contract. That will take the heat off Dassault and will give them more ground and time to hard ball.

Second , AFAIK there is never , not a single time in Defence tender in India deal is not made as per tender. Not because of efficiency but due to CAG. CAG's report will be tabled in LS before elections. And last thing GOI want is his wrath before elections.

 

[Srinivas]

India has Plans to Buy some stakes in Dassault. India is establishing itself as a strong contender in Aerospace industry. Simple

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why are you assuming I have an issue with this deal? I say that would be a great deal. Me being a Pakistani that is. Buying 18 aircraft from France in one deal and then asking them to another deal to start factories to produce the other 108 aircraft. That is not how business is done when you need tech that you do not have. The 18 aircraft looks like Frances way of cutting its losses. Thats just global business. I will bookmark this just in case I might have to eat my words. I will come apologize if this actually goes through other than I predict. You can remind me of that as well.

Did you even read the article? NOTHING has changed. The first SQD/18 a/c were ALWAYS going to built in France off the shelf. The following 108+ were ALWAYS going to be built in India and STILL WILL BE.


I don't understand what you're saying beyond that.

How it can be a win-win deal ???
Its only win for Dassault if it ever happen like said in article.
We lose the bargaining chip if we agree for 18 contract. That will take the heat off Dassault and will give them more ground and time to hard ball.

Second , AFAIK there is never , not a single time in Defence tender in India deal is not made as per tender. Not because of efficiency but due to CAG. CAG's report will be tabled in LS before elections. And last thing GOI want is his wrath before elections.

How? Nothing will change except the first 18 coming sooner than can be expected.

 

[Jayanta]

Sign the contract already, pay the France and get the Rafael off the self for the India air force. Negotiate the contract for 10 yrs and not a single Rafael purchase from the Indian.

India has multiple products from Rafael..if you are speaking about Rafale the deal is mother of all Defense deals costing $15 billion. You just don't finish such deals in months..there are good reason for the delay and furthermore we are Indian if we spend money it better be worth it. We need to extract as much as we can from this deal.

 

[Sergi]

How? Nothing will change except the first 18 coming sooner than can be expected.

Thats the change. 18 coming before finalising whole deal is giving Dassault 100% assurance that we are buying. So they can be little more rigid on bargain.

Anyways I try confirming this new from some of sources and everybody come up with the same reply I posted in both of the threads. ie BS

If any deal happens before elections it will be full deal and sign on contract or no deal. We will wait and see.

 

[longewala]

I don't think India have the technology know how to copy .

You don't need much technology to copy something just a lack of morality and ethics. There is no skill or credit in stealing designs and research from other countries.

 

[janon]

How it can be a win-win deal ???
Its only win for Dassault if it ever happen like said in article.
We lose the bargaining chip if we agree for 18 contract. That will take the heat off Dassault and will give them more ground and time to hard ball.

Second , AFAIK there is never , not a single time in Defence tender in India deal is not made as per tender. Not because of efficiency but due to CAG. CAG's report will be tabled in LS before elections. And last thing GOI want is his wrath before elections.

I don't know if this news is true or not, but if you remember about a year back, the holdup in the negotiations was that Dassaultt wanted two seperate contracts to be signed - one for the off shelf purchase, and one for the license manufactured ones. They had a valid point, that they did not want to be held liable for any potential shoddiness on HAL's part. At that time the Indian side was insistent that it had to be one contract. If this news is true, it means that India has budged from its earlier refusal.

It may not be such a bad thing. I understand your concern that we would be trying ourselves to Dassault and giving them leverage in negotiations - but in reality, maybe that is not true. Here is what I think - maybe the financial details have all been worked out anyway, and the only issue remaining is about liability. If there are delays, who do we penalize and by how much, and so on. Now until all that is settled, we can't sign the contract, and until we sign the contract, the fighters will not begin to be manufactured in either country. (The fighters intended for the IAF.) This could be a way for IAF to see a silver lining, that if they sign the warranty clauses for the off the shelf purchase immedately, they can get one squadron quickly and familiarize themselves with the fighter, while taking more time to finalize the same clauses for the HAL manufactured lot. If the financial issues have already been agreed upon, then Dassault doesn't get any leverage because of this, to milk us dry. At least, not any more than has been agreed to already.

The decision to go with Rafales may have already been taken, and is not open to change. That leverage may not be with us anyway, that we can threaten to go for another fighter if negotiations don't go smoothly. That time is well past. So getting the 18 seperately may not decrease whatever leverage we have.

All this is my speculation only - I am not privy to the negotiations, obviously.

 

[godofwar]

ok…Then change Pakistan status as One and only Superpower and ask US to handover all dollars to Pakistan...La US SAB dolla

(HAL).
Delays in procurement are taking a toll on military force levels as Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons deplete. This has resulted in pressure on the Ministry of Defense to increase the pace for awarding pending contracts. A government code of conduct prevents any contracts being awarded within 45 days of an election. The national election is expected to be called by March, also the end of the financial year.
“If the contract is signed soon, it will be nothing but a paper deal that ensures commitment of the government. We can expect delays after the first 18 aircraft, since the remaining fighters will be built under license with transfer of technology. The government wants to ensure the contract is penned so that the [basic choice] cannot be questioned by subsequent governments,” said an official associated with the project. An official at the MoD noted that signature of the

Did you even read the article? NOTHING has changed. The first SQD/18 a/c were ALWAYS going to built in France off the shelf. The following 108+ were ALWAYS going to be built in India and STILL WILL BE.


I don't understand what you're saying beyond that.


How? Nothing will change except the first 18 coming sooner than can be expected.

If we sign the deal to buy 18 jets right now, it will mean we are committed to Rafale since we will need to setup the infra required to support the bird,train the ground crew and pilots,setup spares production yada,yada,yada.Then Dassault can easily bend us over with the ToT and prices for rest of the fighters .

Right now we have all options open to us.Signing deal to buy 18 fighters now will strengthen French bargaining position enormously.

 

[帅的一匹]

What's the point of buying only 18 Rafale if Dassault will not provide TOT as India'd expected?

 

[Abingdonboy]

What's the point of buying only 18 Rafale if Dassault will not provide TOT as India'd expected?

Is everyone high??


WHY THE ASSUMPTION TOT WON'T HAPPEN?


If anything this actually points to the fact India is sticking to her guns on ToT and offsets as they won't be rushed into signing anything they don't like.

If ToT and Offsets were being thrown out the window the deal would have been signed more than a year ago!

 

[spectribution]

What's the point of buying only 18 Rafale if Dassault will not provide TOT as India'd expected?

We need an MMRCA. On the face of it Rafale can supercruise at Mach 1.4, has SPECTRA EW suit that is like ALR 94 of F22 and ANQ 176 of F35,completely optimised for multirole unlike EF2000 and has a AESA radar that can track 40 targets and engage 12 - 20 (not sure here) of them. Arguably best MMRCA in the world with proven track record.

A TOT means research modules in core areas. This will help our avionics and aerospace industries like the way Maitri QRSAM is being done.

I hope this clears your doubts.

 

[Manvantaratruti]

Is everyone high??
WHY THE ASSUMPTION TOT WON'T HAPPEN?
If anything this actually points to the fact India is sticking to her guns on ToT and offsets as they won't be rushed into signing anything they don't like.
If ToT and Offsets were being thrown out the window the deal would have been signed more than a year ago!

What is the point of India sticking to her guns on ToT if Rafale will not do the relevant ToT moron.

Where is the leverage ? We are handing over a large leverage for nothing.