India may sign interim deal for 18 Rafales, also deal for Aerial tanker

[UKBengali]

Apart from that we knew that Eurojet was ready to provide us with blade and TVC technology too, if we had selected their engine for LCA MK2.

Then why did India not do this and chose the US engine and got nothing?

India leapfrogs many decades in engine technology and surpasses China in the process.

 

[sancho]

Then why did India not do this and chose the US engine and got nothing?

India leapfrogs many decades in engine technology and surpasses China in the process.

Because the requirement was to get an engine that could be used by N-LCA as well and the GE 414 is already navalised, while the EJ200 would have needed modifications too.
The whole requirement for IN and N-LCA is just a distraction to the LCA program and total nonsense. We could had gone for N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrators, like we already did, to server the purpose of getting know how of developing a carrier fighter, while the IAF LCA and the Kaveri engine development, might had benefitted far more from the lighter EJ200 engine, 3D TVC and the technical assistance we could have got.

And it's not surprising that India is behind in engine technology, we started way later and look where China is with now with all the reverseengineering, they still can't integrate their own developed engines to JF 17 and J10 to be less dependent on Russia and that, although they invested far more than we did! They might me ahead of India, but also are clearly far behind Russia and western countries and Indias mistake was to do it alone, instead of going for joint developments with Russians or Europeans.

 

[faithfulguy]

Better than needed for Rafale's requirement.

What do you mean that better than need? The question is can India manufacture the blade for Rafale engine. It can for MKI engine, but can India also manufacture engine blades for Rafale engine?

As if India is the only country in the world that is insisting on ToT based licence production deals in defence procurments. Turkey is doing it big time, S. Korea and even more so Japan are getting producing foreign stuff in their own countries under ToT and might add some capabilities and you really want to say that they didn't benefit from it?
The fact is, that is the best way to improve your industrial capabilities, since you get know how of the production of modern techs and systems, that otherwise would take you years to reach the same level. The difference is only, how much access to critical techs you have and how much the vendors are ready to provide. The US for example were always very limiting and gave even close partners only very less, while the Europeans always were more open. India had licence productions deals in the past too and they had proved to be good (Eurocopter helis, Jaguar and Mig fighters, Dornier 228 aircrafts...), but it was the MKI deal that got India at least some hands to more important techs and capabilities and since then, every new deal is negotiated with the aim to gain more and more benefits in return. The MMRCA is the tip of the iceberg if you want, since even the vendors stated, that they haven't faced a competition with so high ToT and offset requirements before, but all of them knew that the outcome is beneficiary for them too, which is why even the close ally of Pakistant, the US wanted to take their chances!
Wrt Rafale, Dassault and their partners had officially stated in the Brazilian and the M-MRCA, that full ToT and source codes of the AESA radar would be provided, we also know that Thales had formed JVs with Samtel and BEL for the production of HMS, TV and IRST channels, as well as the Damocles LDP, which means ToT of all these can be provided to India too, we also know that Snecma is offering the core of the upgraded M88 engine for Kaveri since years, including blade technology. Apart from that we knew that Eurojet was ready to provide us with blade and TVC technology too, if we had selected their engine for LCA MK2.
So it's a bit moot to still claim India could not get critical techs, when the fact is pretty different. The more important questions however would be, is Indian industry already able to "use" (not take advantage of) the ToT and how fast will the foreign vendors divert the ToT (MKI, Hawks, Scorpene, all examples were issues of diverting ToT delayed things too)?

At the end of the day, India will improve with the MMRCA deal, it already has! All the JVs that were created mainly wrt the MMRCA, or comparable defence deals created a lot of industry links in India and pushed the privat sector to participate stronger. So that alone makes it worth it, if IAF now gets one of the most advanced 4.5th gen fighters, it only makes the deal even better!

According to Swagger, because Indian can create the blades for MKI engine, India can create the blades for Rafale. Why would India need to acquire the blade tech for Snecma M88?

 

[UKBengali]

Because the requirement was to get an engine that could be used by N-LCA as well and the GE 414 is already navalised, while the EJ200 would have needed modifications too.
The whole requirement for IN and N-LCA is just a distraction to the LCA program and total nonsense. We could had gone for N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrators, like we already did, to server the purpose of getting know how of developing a carrier fighter, while the IAF LCA and the Kaveri engine development, might had benefitted far more from the lighter EJ200 engine, 3D TVC and the technical assistance we could have got.

And it's not surprising that India is behind in engine technology, we started way later and look where China is with now with all the reverseengineering, they still can't integrate their own developed engines to JF 17 and J10 to be less dependent on Russia and that, although they invested far more than we did! They might me ahead of India, but also are clearly far behind Russia and western countries and Indias mistake was to do it alone, instead of going for joint developments with Russians or Europeans.

The Chinese are far behind the US and the UK but I am not so sure about the Russians.

WS-10A works as it equips over 60 J-11Bs and is the only engine being used on J-16 prototypes being tested. You don't use an unreliable engine on a prototype plane.

The only reason that the Chinese do not use the WS-10A on other planes is that the option to buy Russian is there. If it was not, then these engines would also be equipping J-10s as well.

Russia is developing Izdeliye 30 for PAK-FA and that is only expected to be ready by 2020, around the same time as the WS-15 and looks like they will be comparable in performance.

China is flight testing WS-20 for Y-20 transport and is developing an indigenous engine for the C919 airliner.

It also has the indigenous WZ-9 for the Z-10 attack helicopter.

Russia is a little ahead of China now but the gap will be pretty negligible by the end of the decade.

 

[SwAggeR]

What do you mean that better than need? The question is can India manufacture the blade for Rafale engine. It can for MKI engine, but can India also manufacture engine blades for Rafale engine?

Yes it can . Dumtards first go and read the link I gave you before showing your uselessness.Now buzz off

 

[faithfulguy]

Yes it can . Dumtards first go and read the link I gave you before showing your uselessness.Now buzz off

Post your attachment here. I'm not downloading anything.

 

[SwAggeR]

Post your attachment here. I'm not downloading anything.

Why ?? Do you have pirated anti-virus ??

 

[sancho]

The Chinese are far behind the US and the UK but I am not so sure about the Russians.

Then you should inform yourself about how many engines (not only for fighters but for any kind of aircrafts) China imports from Russia. It's also not only the reliability, but also the performance of Chinese engines that are behind, look at the WS13 that JF 17 should get, which offers less thrust than the current RD93 and even the upgraded one, might not be as good as the upgraded RD93. So make no mistake, China is improving and more over investing much, but in terms of R&D they remain clearly behind Russia.

Anyway, wrt to the Rafale deal and tech benefits for India, interview with Dassault CEO Eric Trappier:

Where negotiations with India?
They are progressing well. It is long because it is complex. The negotiations involve the sale of 126 combat aircraft, but also on the licensed production of virtually all components of the aircraft. This implies much agree with local industry, HAL in particular. The second difficulty is elections in India in the spring. It is mobilized to finish everything before. If it is after, it will take a government to be formed, which will be fast, and he revisit the subject. But as the case is prepared by the administration and the army, which remain, they, could be finalized before the end of 2014.

Google Übersetzer


Shows once again how much we require in return and what benefit this deal is meant to give India!

 

[UKBengali]

Then you should inform yourself about how many engines (not only for fighters but for any kind of aircrafts) China imports from Russia. It's also not only the reliability, but also the performance of Chinese engines that are behind, look at the WS13 that JF 17 should get, which offers less thrust than the current RD93 and even the upgraded one, might not be as good as the upgraded RD93. So make no mistake, China is improving and more over investing much, but in terms of R&D they remain clearly behind Russia.

China's spending on weapons R&D, including engines, is clearly much more than what Russia can sustain. The gap can only close. We will have to wait and see if there any appreciable gap left at all in 2020.

In your opinion, assuming that France provides all the engine techonology, when will India be able to design and produce an engine of this technological level?

 

[sancho]

China's spending on weapons R&D, including engines, is clearly much more than what Russia can sustain. The gap can only close. We will have to wait and see if there any appreciable gap left at all in 2020.

In your opinion, assuming that France provides all the engine techonology, when will India be able to design and produce an engine of this technological level?

Spending money is not equal to having a huge advantage in experience, know how and in innovations, that's why even the US with the biggest defence spending is behind in certain fields to smaller countries.
They don't have to provide all the techs and I don't even consider that we really get all the critical techs (especially from SPECTRA), but it will improve Indian industry for sure.
That depends on the further development of the Kaveri engine, we already gained a lot of experience with the program, we just did it the wrong way and have to continue developing it and use our access to partners and techs to speed up the developments. We already know that the current version will be integrated to Mig 29s or LCAs in this or next year and the chances of replacing even latest RD 33 engines in future is not that bad. It also is still meant to replace GE 404 in the LCA MK1 in future upgrades, so potential is there, we just shouldn't combine it to AMCA again and put more pressure on the development than needed. That's where we can learn from China, using foreign engines for their fighters and keep developing own engines as side developments, with the aim to integrate them and replace the foreign engines later.