India matching China in border infrastructure

[Black Stone]

Also Mr Black Stone, if you think I am being too ‘optimistic’ in regards to this scenario then you should go check out some of the things people speak about in Indian Military Forums (Su-30 MKIs escorting American B-52s bombing Pakistani nucks, lol) then this will sound perfectly reasonable to you. Given Chinas rising power and current trends, I think we are being objective enough. You have the right to disagree of course, but please don’t consider me an immature idiot. Good Day.

I don't see anybody considering you as an immature idiot but yourself. So are you an immature idiot?.

Now back to my post, I don't care about what is happening in the Indian Military Forums, I am only interested in the threads that I am participating.

Like you have said, this is a military forum so this is the place to ask questions and discuss issues. That is exactly what I am doing.

You have stated in this hypothetical scenario of an Sino-India war and thinking Pakistan and Bangladesh would get involved on the Chinese side. I am simply giving you the other half of this balanced view scenario where the US would side with India.

So what is wrong with my post contributing to your hypothetical scenario?.

 

[JEFF]

Some people need to calm down, I just made an observation in regards to a hypothetical military scenario that might arise, I did not declare war on India. This is a military forum after all and we are supposed to discuss possible contingencies involving our countries. So I’ve had enough of the “If you are a responsible Pakistani citizen” and “our economy is better than yours” dramatics, thank you very much.

I think just because someone gets the liberty of picturing hypothetical military scenario, it doesn't mean that person behind that scenario will not be subjected for re-observation from others. Even I said that I am not teaching you anything but only god knows how did you manage to suggest some of us to maintain their composure when someone manage to expose hollowness behind your hypothetical military scenario. Particular hypothetical scenario about which you were talking about is going here and all other forums since years and there is nothing anything that I find extraordinary in it. Henceforth, we people need to be pretty resonable before making unacceptable senarios.

I just read a Janes article about the Indian Army where it said that despite problems, the Indian Army had an adequate force in place to check 'major' advances by the Pakistan Army while maintaining a minimum deterrent force to check any PLA deployments. However if Pakistan and Bangladesh too were to deploy forces ON THE BORDER (which India decides to do every few couple of years whenever things tend to get too peaceful) at a time of conflict with the PLA (which I reckon is somewhat more of a threat than the PA) then the situation would indeed warrant concern for the Indians in regards to their force dispositions in 3 corresponding theatres. Or ofcourse they could choose to ignore either Pakistani or Bangladeshi maneuvers. (Besides it is also suggestible that the PLA will not need any ‘strategic assistance’ in terms of aggressive posturing from Pakistan to deal with any Indian challenges.)

Well, whatever the Indian army deployment that you are refering about is legtimate rights of its own, nobody in the world has privilage enough to suggest IA wheather to deploy troops on the border or not. It is worldwide fact that India has some of the hostile borders in the world and hence to ensure saftey and security of each and every Indian, it becomes quite imperative that there should be a constant presence on the border to thrawt back the intrusion of Terrorist outfits. What other country or a person thinks about this border deployment doesn't govern the fundamentals of IA, it do know what is the premise upon which it is deploying its troops on the border. If all other countries are getting insecured with that then that is not our problem.

It is sound military logic ofcourse, I have read many military commentators talk about, or suggest or relate to this sort of thing in regards to the subcontinent. As far as the political implications go, well that is another thing. These days wars don’t tend to last that long, EVEN IF and that’s a big ‘IF’ the US or NATO wanted to come to the aid of the ‘victim’ that would most probably be a post-war thing as far as any practical help goes. Like in 1962 the west rushed military aid to India after it had been soundly beaten by the PLA (this ‘aid’ was then put to use again Pakistan in 1965).

Oh in 1962, west rushed to aid India, Can you tell me how many Troops and fighter jets did Nato deployed in assistance to India?

It was true that, India was asking for help but none of the NATO allies came in aid. There was some help from Isreal and France in terms of providing equipment during the war but none of the NATO allies made any effort to thrawt back PLA intrusions. It was only after ceasefire, west came in to aid India.

Also we can’t stop talking about any possible war scenario because some of us think “OMG America would never allow it”. NATO can barely muster enough troops to confront a ragtag Taliban insurgency, let alone a regional power and its allies.

Yes this is true, but it is only a matter of time. NATO have decades of experience in tackling various such insurgency and henceforth making end to Taliban will not be a big deal for them in a years to come.

Also Mr Black Stone, if you think I am being too ‘optimistic’ in regards to this scenario then you should go check out some of the things people speak about in Indian Military Forums (Su-30 MKIs escorting American B-52s bombing Pakistani nucks, lol) then this will sound perfectly reasonable to you. Given Chinas rising power and current trends, I think we are being objective enough. You have the right to disagree of course, but please don’t consider me an immature idiot. Good Day.

Well, if you are so outregous with IMF's and their discussions, then you should not form it as a basis to cloud your own perception and script some undigestable scearios.

 

[Kasrkin]

The Indian Army has for decades planned a 2 front war. The Western and Eastern Army Commands dont need each other's support to carry out operations. The Airforce commands however change their assets wherever needed. India has planned and prepared to hold China in the Eastern theatre while pummeling Pakistan.

I see, I am sure all this looks pretty good on paper but I am simply astounded that anyone, even an Indian, could believe that a Indian Army’s single army group could be self-sufficient in destroying the Pakistan Army all the while the other defeats everything the PLA has to offer simultaneously. While India may no doubt aspire to achieve this ideal scenario, just like her dreams of superpower-hood, it is certainly not quite realistic yet.

To your next point-The border with China does not allow for large scale infantry combat, let alone tanks. The majority of the border is Himalayas, the maximum that is possible is in Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim and Jammu and Kashmir. The airforce has the maximum role to play in these theaters, and Chinese airbases in Tibet are operationally limited because of their height. Plane's using the Tibetan bases can only carry very limited ordinance and range, any plane comming from the interior of China is also then limited by range. It does not matter how much more China spends on defence than India. What matters is who has a better airforce and what they bring in these theaters.

Hm, it is a 4,057 km border after all, currently only 6 of your Army’s 35 divisions are stationed near that border. As is the very nature of war, I am sure you will be needing the others too as will the PLA. War will suck in resources, manpower and indeed air assets. Certainly aircraft and artillery ammunition flows should not be discounted. As this border is very mountainous, man power will be your primary requirement. Also war with China will not a walk in the park so that you could be done with it in a week and your units will be back for their training cycle, it will almost certainly be a protracted affair. It is hard to see how it wont suck everything from food to aircraft munitions.

Thirdly, regarding Bangladesh, there is absolutely no way that BD would start aggressive posturing against India. Even if you want to start on this ridiculously hypothetical scenario, then let me put it bluntly, even if BD starts aggressive posturing, it doesnt make a damn difference. THey dont have the military either in the Army, or the Airforce or the Navy to make even tactical differences in the situation, let alone strategic ones. The IAF would overfly their airspace with impunity. The IN would be destroying their ports even if they think of making a move.

Everything you have said leads me to conclude that yours is the “ridiculously hypothetical scenario”, not mine. It would be a mistake to claim that you can dispense with Bangladesh, a nation of 150 million, with such contemptuous ease. Even if you were capable of eliminating the Bangladesh Army, Air Force and Navy with such confidence and efficiency, it would still require troops, aircraft and ships along with intricate planning. Also given present trends, it is apparent China is seeking to raise the stakes as for as Bangladesh is concerned, as are the Bangladeshis themselves.

I wish I could address the technical aspects of this no doubt interesting debate right now, but my exams are up at the moment and I will undoubtedly come back to this topic once I have gone through some suitable military literature. Then we shall see how your own ‘scenario’ holds up point by point. That is if you are willing of course…though I admit I am surprised and a little thrilled with all this out-cry to my simple observation.

I don't see anybody considering you as an immature idiot but yourself. So are you an immature idiot?

Perhaps it would serve you well to reread my previous posts, I never implied or said any such thing.

You have stated in this hypothetical scenario of an Sino-India war and thinking Pakistan and Bangladesh would get involved on the Chinese side. I am simply giving you the other half of this balanced view scenario where the US would side with India.

So what is wrong with my post contributing to your hypothetical scenario?.

I never said I did not appreciate your perfectly reasonable contributions; in fact I went as far as to address them, as always, again please refer to my previous posts in case of further confusion.

I think just because someone gets the liberty of picturing hypothetical military scenario, it doesn't mean that person behind that scenario will not be subjected for re-observation from others. Even I said that I am not teaching you anything but only god knows how did you manage to suggest some of us to maintain their composure when someone manage to expose hollowness behind your hypothetical military scenario. Particular hypothetical scenario about which you were talking about is going here and all other forums since years and there is nothing anything that I find extraordinary in it. Henceforth, we people need to be pretty resonable before making unacceptable senarios.

Again, people need to calm down. There is nothing horrible or childish about my scenario. Like I said professional military observers have commented about this, and this sort of thing has happened countless times in the past. It almost happened in 1971 when China threatened to intervene if India tried to carry out any territorial ambitions against West-Pakistan. It happened in the Cold War on almost yearly basis. I can assure you all that my purpose in raising this particular debate was not to provoke insecurities anyone might have in regards to Pakistan or China. I am certainly no troll and I hate trolling, but it is not my fault that you feel my scenario is “unacceptable” to you. If you feel like having a technical and intellectual debate then it’s all great, but please let’s not lecture and bicker.

Well, whatever the Indian army deployment that you are refering about is legtimate rights of its own, nobody in the world has privilage enough to suggest IA wheather to deploy troops on the border or not. It is worldwide fact that India has some of the hostile borders in the world and hence to ensure saftey and security of each and every Indian, it becomes quite imperative that there should be a constant presence on the border to thrawt back the intrusion of Terrorist outfits. What other country or a person thinks about this border deployment doesn't govern the fundamentals of IA, it do know what is the premise upon which it is deploying its troops on the border. If all other countries are getting insecured with that then that is not our problem.

Very funny you should say that, given the fact you are the one exposing obvious insecurities because of my mere raising of the hypothetical prospect of Pakistan deployment troops on the border.

Yes this is true, but it is only a matter of time. NATO have decades of experience in tackling various such insurgency and henceforth making end to Taliban will not be a big deal for them in a years to come.

Please that is not the point. Point is that their commanders are pleading for more troops as are the US, UK and Canadian diplomats, but most countries are just unwilling and unable to contribute simply because of fear of casualties. If they don’t have the will to fight the weakest and evilest enemies in the shape of terrorists, there is little else they will have the stomach for.

Well, if you are so outregous with IMF's and their discussions, then you should not form it as a basis to cloud your own perception and script some undigestable scearios.

Amusement would be the more appropriate word describing my feelings towards IMFs, certainly outrage would be more a kin to the attitude you are displaying towards my posts. I do hope that will stop, because if you feel that my points are so completely “indigestible” then there is no point pretending to be so indignant about it. Good Day 4 now.

 

[Contrarian]

I see, I am sure all this looks pretty good on paper but I am simply astounded that anyone, even an Indian, could believe that a Indian Army’s single army group could be self-sufficient in destroying the Pakistan Army all the while the other defeats everything the PLA has to offer simultaneously. While India may no doubt aspire to achieve this ideal scenario, just like her dreams of superpower-hood, it is certainly not quite realistic yet.

Did i say a single group army of IA is sufficient for PA. We do have holding and offensive corps stationed for Pakistan. This apart, the Army is trying to make IBG's to counter Pakistan. So i believe they know what they are doing. Like i said before, the Western Army and Eastern Army command function separately unlike the IAF commands where assets are exchanged.

Hm, it is a 4,057 km border after all, currently only 6 of your Army’s 35 divisions are stationed near that border. As is the very nature of war, I am sure you will be needing the others too as will the PLA. War will suck in resources, manpower and indeed air assets. Certainly aircraft and artillery ammunition flows should not be discounted. As this border is very mountainous, man power will be your primary requirement. Also war with China will not a walk in the park so that you could be done with it in a week and your units will be back for their training cycle, it will almost certainly be a protracted affair. It is hard to see how it wont suck everything from food to aircraft munitions.

Where did i ever say that this would be a week long, tidy affair? The border is long, but most of it is mountanous that cannot be crossed by men, only planes. So the actual infantry combat and logistics lines flow from only a few places, where the battle will be most heavily fought. That is very limited, which is what i mean.

India is massively upgrading its infrastructure in the NE. Old and strategically important airbases are being reactivated and ALG's are being prepared so that heavy air supply can take place. I hope you ALSO know that in line with all this, India is also planning to completely upgrade its airlift capabilities. That includes buying planes of heavier MTOW than even the Il-76 class of planes, apart from replacing the entire inventory of the An-32 with the much bigger MRTA. This is a part of the 'decade long buildup' against China.

Everything you have said leads me to conclude that yours is the “ridiculously hypothetical scenario”, not mine. It would be a mistake to claim that you can dispense with Bangladesh, a nation of 150 million, with such contemptuous ease. Even if you were capable of eliminating the Bangladesh Army, Air Force and Navy with such confidence and efficiency, it would still require troops, aircraft and ships along with intricate planning. Also given present trends, it is apparent China is seeking to raise the stakes as for as Bangladesh is concerned, as are the Bangladeshis themselves.

They can try to raise their game as much as they want. It doesnt matter. You cannot make BD a threat just because its a 'nation of 150 million'. A nation's ability to wage war depends on its military apparatus, 150 million are not going to start fighting. India is not occupying BD. Their military deployement makes no difference as of now. They are not even on a buying spree or modernization spree, whereas the Indian Armed Forces as whole are on a massive one. Think of further disparity in 10 years time.

Again, people need to calm down. There is nothing horrible or childish about my scenario. Like I said professional military observers have commented about this, and this sort of thing has happened countless times in the past. It almost happened in 1971 when China threatened to intervene if India tried to carry out any territorial ambitions against West-Pakistan.

Please dont give yourself false satisfaction. If China had to intervene, they would have done so for 'Pakistan', not West Pakistan or East Pakistan. So dont give BS that China threatened to intervene for 'West Pakistan'. They did make some noises, that was about it. Made no difference, they would not intervene militarily for Pakistan.

[/QUOTE]Good Day 4 now.[/QUOTE]
Good day to you as well.

 

[JEFF]

I see, I am sure all this looks pretty good on paper but I am simply astounded that anyone, even an Indian, could believe that a Indian Army’s single army group could be self-sufficient in destroying the Pakistan Army all the while the other defeats everything the PLA has to offer simultaneously. While India may no doubt aspire to achieve this ideal scenario, just like her dreams of superpower-hood, it is certainly not quite realistic yet.

It is quite similar to put an unspoken words in all others mouth. Who are this Indians tell me admitting that IA's single army group is self-sufficient in destroying the Pakistan army at the same time tackling PLA on other side? This is simply absurd to even bring such words in mind and makes scenario, even IA themselves can digest such facts which has fought several conflicts in all this decades.

Hm, it is a 4,057 km border after all, currently only 6 of your Army’s 35 divisions are stationed near that border. As is the very nature of war, I am sure you will be needing the others too as will the PLA. War will suck in resources, manpower and indeed air assets. Certainly aircraft and artillery ammunition flows should not be discounted. As this border is very mountainous, man power will be your primary requirement. Also war with China will not a walk in the park so that you could be done with it in a week and your units will be back for their training cycle, it will almost certainly be a protracted affair. It is hard to see how it wont suck everything from food to aircraft munitions.

Now this is seems to me that you are getting from hypothetical scenario to spontenous scenario. All the thing implied above are well recognized by Indian's themselves.

Everything you have said leads me to conclude that yours is the “ridiculously hypothetical scenario”, not mine. It would be a mistake to claim that you can dispense with Bangladesh, a nation of 150 million, with such contemptuous ease. Even if you were capable of eliminating the Bangladesh Army, Air Force and Navy with such confidence and efficiency, it would still require troops, aircraft and ships along with intricate planning.

Then tell me what is the pattern of Bangladesh Army, Air force and Navy which will require India to go for absolute innovation to contain it. Heck, half of their Airforce and Navy is nothing but a mixed of age old aircrafts. Sometimes back they were looking for a country to sold their Mig-29s because it was becoming highly difficult for them operate because of their high logistical cost. Regarding their Navy, little said more is better. Regarding dealing with 150 million Bangladeshi citizens, hello India don't want to create any damage to them, India would only want to neutralize all their armed assets which will create dangers.

Also given present trends, it is apparent China is seeking to raise the stakes as for as Bangladesh is concerned, as are the Bangladeshis themselves.

Let them increase it, who care about them.

I wish I could address the technical aspects of this no doubt interesting debate right now, but my exams are up at the moment and I will undoubtedly come back to this topic once I have gone through some suitable military literature. Then we shall see how your own ‘scenario’ holds up point by point. That is if you are willing of course…though I admit I am surprised and a little thrilled with all this out-cry to my simple observation.

All the Best with your exams.

Again, people need to calm down. There is nothing horrible or childish about my scenario. Like I said professional military observers have commented about this, and this sort of thing has happened countless times in the past.

Kindly tell me, in which year or decade or a day when Pakistan, BD and China came together to encircle India which is making you to make such scenarios.

It almost happened in 1971 when China threatened to intervene if India tried to carry out any territorial ambitions against West-Pakistan.

Oh really, my godness, Kindly bring me a source about this imagination. I think you are mistaking China for US. China did created a problem in Security Council but they never threatened to intervane because India had inked pact with Soviets to contain china in case occassion arise. Heck, US had sent their 7th carrier fleet to contain India but they back off because Soviets decided to send their two Nucler submarines to contain the same.

It happened in the Cold War on almost yearly basis.

That is why I am asking you, provide me a incident in which South asian countries alongwith China were involving in.

I can assure you all that my purpose in raising this particular debate was not to provoke insecurities anyone might have in regards to Pakistan or China. I am certainly no troll and I hate trolling, but it is not my fault that you feel my scenario is “unacceptable” to you. If you feel like having a technical and intellectual debate then it’s all great, but please let’s not lecture and bicker.

How much I will have to tell you, I am not giving lecture to you. Rather I am just compling with the rituals of this fourm by quoting your post and correcting the same. If that is sounding as a teaching or preaching then I can't help you in that regard.

Very funny you should say that, given the fact you are the one exposing obvious insecurities because of my mere raising of the hypothetical prospect of Pakistan deployment troops on the border.

Exposure of insecurities helped in raising your bar, then I can't help. But as far as your knowledge goes as exhibited above, even immature person can decide who is more insecure, I had just implied the purpose of IA's deployment which is not governed by what other thing. I don't understand what kind of a perception you had drawn from it and announced me as a insecure.

Please that is not the point. Point is that their commanders are pleading for more troops as are the US, UK and Canadian diplomats, but most countries are just unwilling and unable to contribute simply because of fear of casualties. If they don’t have the will to fight the weakest and evilest enemies in the shape of terrorists, there is little else they will have the stomach for.

It is not about having a stomach, rather a legtimacy. If Taliban had created trouble in their own den, they you have definetly seen what their stomach is made up of. Then you will get to see what US, UK and Canadian diplomats and soldiers are made up of if Taliban decided to inflict damage right into the hearts of their own country. Their unwillingness is highly deriving from the fact that they have very little to earn by containing Taliban at the cost of their own soldiers and maintaining a peace in Afganistan.

Amusement would be the more appropriate word describing my feelings towards IMFs, certainly outrage would be more a kin to the attitude you are displaying towards my posts. I do hope that will stop, because if you feel that my points are so completely “indigestible” then there is no point pretending to be so indignant about it. Good Day 4 now.

Bye, bye.