India matching China in border infrastructure

[jefmq]

China never have the notion to "invade" India,because we needn't do that.
Firtsly,China need a peaceful environment to develop it's economy,this is most important!
ant then It's much easier and shorter for PLA to attack New Delhi while your army to attack China's capital.
The Beijing-Tibet Railway also makes it much more easier for PLA to Tibet.
Ｗhich was also important, chinese government can cut down the Brahmaputra anytime if need!

 

[jefmq]

Dude ...... iam not pointing at who lost who won.... all i am saying right now is that it will take more than a day to burn either of our countries.

Any which way i will reply to your posts -

Forgotten Nehru ji scampering off to the UN with his dhoti in a knot? - Well, who was being being thown out of kashmir at that point in time. It was pakistan.. Nehru was a schmuck to go to UN at that time. here is my answer to your crap.. Please ask me for the link..

1947-48 Kashmir War

The 1947-48 War was an improvised war fought on an ad hoc basis. It began with some tangible operational strategy and little definite strategy on the Pakistan side and a definite operational strategy on the Indian side. At the onset Mr Jinnah the Governor General of Pakistan ordered the British Acting C in C Pakistan Army to order two brigades into Kashmir, one on the Sialkot-Jammu Axis and the other on Murree-Muzaffarabad-Srinagar-Axis. This was a tangible plan based on a precise strategy of severing Indian landward and aerial lines of communication to Kashmir. The plan was rendered null and void since the Britisher refused to obey Jinnah’s order.

This was followed by a hastily scrambled series of actions with regular Pakistan Army officers leading irregulars, irregulars besieging Indian/Dogra garrisons and conducting mini-wars against Chamb, Naushera, Srinagar, Skardu, Leh etc. In April 1948 the regular Pakistan Army entered the scene. At this stage the Indians were in a strategically disadvantageous position. Leh being cut off, Poonch besieged, Skardu besieged, Naushera threatened etc. At this stage the Pakistani strategy was to contain Indian Army advance towards Muzaffarabad, capture Poonch and safeguard Pakistan’s soft underbelly opposite Gujrat. No one at this stage thought of a ceasefire, which would have been of great strategic advantage to Pakistan. The Indians conceived a fine plan to outflank Muzaffarabad and executed a brilliant brigade level march across against the 3,000 metres plus high Nastachun Pass, thus unexpectedly forcing their way with great ease to Tithwal. The Pakistani official history noted “Brigadier Harbux Singh, commander of the 163 Brigade waited at Tithwal for two days to let the rest of his brigade join him there . He lingered a little longer to prepare for his next move and perhaps also to coordinate his moves with that of the Indian offensive in the Jhelum Valley for a two pronged push towards Muzaffarabad. This delay changed the subsequent course of history in Kishanganga Valley, as it enabled the first two companies of 4/16 Punjab under Major Mohammad Akbar Khan to reach by a forced march in the vicinity of Tithwal and take up positions there”1. The Pakistanis saved their position by reinforcing it with a brigade.

On the operational level the Pakistanis did well by capturing Pandu a position of tactical importance in the Jhelum Valley by a brilliant infiltration plan conceived by Commander 101 Brigade Brigadier Akbar Khan DSO with the indomitable Major Ishaq MC as his Brigade Major. Akbar deputed Lt Col Harvey Kelly, commanding 4/10 Baluch to plan the attack in detail.2 Pandu, however, was an operational episode of great tactical significance but limited strategic value.

From April 1948 to December 1948 the Pakistani GHQ merely reacted tactically moving companies and battalions while the Indians moved strategically. In Phase One, they recaptured Rajauri the gateway to Poonch with a single tank squadron! In Phase Two, they achieved two strategic triumphs! They forced their way through Zojila Pass driving on to relieve Leh and capture Kargil Dras and they relieved Poonch which was a mini-Indian East Pakistan surrounded from all sides by Pakistani troops.

At this stage the Pakistani GHQ had conceived the Operation Venus. Venus was a thrust against the Indian line of communication leading to Poonch Valley with an infantry and a heavy tank brigade in Naushera-Beri Patan area. At this stage the Indians were involved in the relief of Poonch and Leh and strategically off balance. The official account of 1970, however, maintains that the aim of Venus was not to sever the Indian line of communication to Poonch but merely to force the Indians for ceasefire which they did and which came into effect on night 31 Dec 1948/01 January 1949. If ceasefire was the aim then the Pakistani strategy was barren since a ceasefire in July 1948 would have been far more strategically desirable! This was so since in April 1948 Zojila (captured by Gilgit Scouts under Lieut Shah Khan on 7th July 1948) the gateway to Srinagar as well as Ladakh in Pakistani hands, the frontline near Rajauri and Poonch surrounded by Pakistani troops/irregulars. It is not clear what the Pakistani GHQ advised the civilians at this stage but no records have been made public which prove that they gave any advice!

In the 1960s General Fazal-i- Muqeem asserted that the ceasefire of 1948 took place to the army’s horror since the army was close to a great victory. However, this point is refuted by the Pakistan Army’s Official account of 1970. Much later in 1976 General Sher Ali who was commanding a brigade of the Venus Force asserted that had the operation been launched Pakistani tanks would have been in Jammu within no time! This has to be taken with a pinch of salt once we compare it to the performance of armour in an offensive role in 1965 and 1971!

The Kashmir War ended with the Indians as masters of Poonch Valley, Srinagar Valley and Leh Valley but with a communication to all three valleys running precariously close to the Pakistani border! Thus strategically the Indian position despite all their strategic triumphs was not secure since their line of communications offered multiple objectives to any single Pakistani thrust. One tank brigade with a twenty mile thrust could threaten the existence of a whole Indian army corps. The Indians took no care to remedy this state of affairs despite many war games held in their Kashmir Corps to show that the Pakistanis could threaten the Indian line of communication in Poonch Valley.3


Also, factually Nehru used to prefer a 'sherwani' to a dhoti. So, if you were to say that nehru ran to UN with his pajama in a knot, it would make you post partially correct....... Cheers

India idiot!:
I'm ashamed for your so-called democracy and government!

 

[jefmq]

and there are many commies in india who will die for china.

it's impossible for me to believe your words !
just like Kvlin's opinion,communism is not religion.

 

[Contrarian]

jefmq, now make me understand, do you think this is a second version of pakdef forum, where you post any kind of $hit with a Chinese and Pakistani flag together and people will drool over and welcome you?

 

[Kasrkin]

Okaay lets get back to the topic. If there were a conventional war between China and India, and Pakistan and Bengladesh deploy their forces too just to put pressure on the Indian Armed Forces. Then I dont think India can win...though it should be fun.

 

[Imran Khan]

Okaay lets get back to the topic. If there were a conventional war between China and India, and Pakistan and Bengladesh deploy their forces too just to put pressure on the Indian Armed Forces. Then I dont think India can win...though it should be fun.

its just think pakistan bangladesh will never ever can do this who many time in india pakistan wars happens like this some one fight and there firends deploy forces on border.when combat will start every one keep himself away from war

 

[Black Stone]

Okaay lets get back to the topic. If there were a conventional war between China and India, and Pakistan and Bengladesh deploy their forces too just to put pressure on the Indian Armed Forces. Then I dont think India can win...though it should be fun.

Sounds like a good scenario for you, but you forgot to mention that the US and NATO might come to assist India. Do you think the US would sit by and watch this 3 on 1 conflict?.

Even if there was a war between China and India. What make you think Pakistan and Bangladesh would get involved?.

 

[p2prada]

It is probable but highly unlikely that china may join an Indo-pak war. But, BD thinking of war against india is impossible.
India will probably think, since China and pak have the upper hand lets concentrate on BD and remove her out of the equation.

The notion BD facing annhilation will obviously force the international community to stop china and pak.


U think US will quietly sit and watch china take india. Taiwan will also get the excuse to announce independence in front of growing chinese dissent in front of the international community. They will lose their so called "prestige" in a war against india.

China has much to lose than gain in such fruitless wars.

 

[JEFF]

Okaay lets get back to the topic. If there were a conventional war between China and India, and Pakistan and Bengladesh deploy their forces too just to put pressure on the Indian Armed Forces. Then I dont think India can win...though it should be fun.

If you are a responsible Pakistani Citizens then you should not made such comments, by the way I am not the one who should teach you how to comment. But don't you think it is little absured to make a story like this where two countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh's economics are suffering from worldwide financial crisis and on other hand you are make an audacities of making such scripts without a little thaught wheather both the countries could sustain high expenses of war. You need to redefine your pattern of thinking, because you seems to have lost all confidence in the capabilities of your own country from where you are hailing from.

 

[Kasrkin]

Some people need to calm down, I just made an observation in regards to a hypothetical military scenario that might arise, I did not declare war on India. This is a military forum after all and we are supposed to discuss possible contingencies involving our countries. So I’ve had enough of the “If you are a responsible Pakistani citizen” and “our economy is better than yours” dramatics, thank you very much.

I just read a Janes article about the Indian Army where it said that despite problems, the Indian Army had an adequate force in place to check 'major' advances by the Pakistan Army while maintaining a minimum deterrent force to check any PLA deployments. However if Pakistan and Bangladesh too were to deploy forces ON THE BORDER (which India decides to do every few couple of years whenever things tend to get too peaceful) at a time of conflict with the PLA (which I reckon is somewhat more of a threat than the PA) then the situation would indeed warrant concern for the Indians in regards to their force dispositions in 3 corresponding theatres. Or ofcourse they could choose to ignore either Pakistani or Bangladeshi maneuvers. (Besides it is also suggestible that the PLA will not need any ‘strategic assistance’ in terms of aggressive posturing from Pakistan to deal with any Indian challenges.)

It is sound military logic ofcourse, I have read many military commentators talk about, or suggest or relate to this sort of thing in regards to the subcontinent. As far as the political implications go, well that is another thing. These days wars don’t tend to last that long, EVEN IF and that’s a big ‘IF’ the US or NATO wanted to come to the aid of the ‘victim’ that would most probably be a post-war thing as far as any practical help goes. Like in 1962 the west rushed military aid to India after it had been soundly beaten by the PLA (this ‘aid’ was then put to use again Pakistan in 1965).

Also we can’t stop talking about any possible war scenario because some of us think “OMG America would never allow it”. NATO can barely muster enough troops to confront a ragtag Taliban insurgency, let alone a regional power and its allies.

Also Mr Black Stone, if you think I am being too ‘optimistic’ in regards to this scenario then you should go check out some of the things people speak about in Indian Military Forums (Su-30 MKIs escorting American B-52s bombing Pakistani nucks, lol) then this will sound perfectly reasonable to you. Given Chinas rising power and current trends, I think we are being objective enough. You have the right to disagree of course, but please don’t consider me an immature idiot. Good Day.

 

[jeypore]

Okaay lets get back to the topic. If there were a conventional war between China and India, and Pakistan and Bengladesh deploy their forces too just to put pressure on the Indian Armed Forces. Then I dont think India can win...though it should be fun.

Actually in your senirio India can hold off on two front war. Bangledesh does even come in the picture here because it is not formidable. In all fairness India's military for last 5 to 7 years is gearing up on two front war, and the military capabilities it has acquired and acquiring is based on this senirio. So to answer your question India can hold off China and Pakistan if both force where deployed.

 

[Kasrkin]

That is a reasonable observation. But I think even Bangladesh is also moving along the militarization path. And the PLA spends much more on defence than India, increasing every year. Perhaps it is possible for the Indians to win or draw in a conventional territorial war with China if they are well lead and Pakistan sticks to high readiness levels only, but a drawn out affair with Pakistan also fully involved on the other side is completely another game.

 

[p2prada]

China never have the notion to "invade" India,because we needn't do that.
Firtsly,China need a peaceful environment to develop it's economy,this is most important!
ant then It's much easier and shorter for PLA to attack New Delhi while your army to attack China's capital.
The Beijing-Tibet Railway also makes it much more easier for PLA to Tibet.
Ｗhich was also important, chinese government can cut down the Brahmaputra anytime if need!

India does not use the brahmaputra as much. your friend BD will be in more trouble.

NE india rely on rainfall too. cherapunji in assam recieves the highest rainfall in the world. Even if u do stop brahmaputra in tibet, it will fill up(atleast partly) as it comes down to india cause of rains and snow.

 

[Contrarian]

I just read a Janes article about the Indian Army where it said that despite problems, the Indian Army had an adequate force in place to check 'major' advances by the Pakistan Army while maintaining a minimum deterrent force to check any PLA deployments. However if Pakistan and Bangladesh too were to deploy forces ON THE BORDER (which India decides to do every few couple of years whenever things tend to get too peaceful) at a time of conflict with the PLA (which I reckon is somewhat more of a threat than the PA) then the situation would indeed warrant concern for the Indians in regards to their force dispositions in 3 corresponding theatres. Or ofcourse they could choose to ignore either Pakistani or Bangladeshi maneuvers. (Besides it is also suggestible that the PLA will not need any ‘strategic assistance’ in terms of aggressive posturing from Pakistan to deal with any Indian challenges.)

It is sound military logic ofcourse, I have read many military commentators talk about, or suggest or relate to this sort of thing in regards to the subcontinent. As far as the political implications go, well that is another thing. These days wars don’t tend to last that long, EVEN IF and that’s a big ‘IF’ the US or NATO wanted to come to the aid of the ‘victim’ that would most probably be a post-war thing as far as any practical help goes. Like in 1962 the west rushed military aid to India after it had been soundly beaten by the PLA (this ‘aid’ was then put to use again Pakistan in 1965).

Given Chinas rising power and current trends, I think we are being objective enough. You have the right to disagree of course, but please don’t consider me an immature idiot. Good Day.

The Indian Army has for decades planned a 2 front war. The Western and Eastern Army Commands dont need each other's support to carry out operations. The Airforce commands however change their assets wherever needed. India has planned and prepared to hold China in the Eastern theatre while pummeling Pakistan.

To your next point-The border with China does not allow for large scale infantry combat, let alone tanks. The majority of the border is Himalayas, the maximum that is possible is in Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim and Jammu and Kashmir. The airforce has the maximum role to play in these theaters, and Chinese airbases in Tibet are operationally limited because of their height. Plane's using the Tibetan bases can only carry very limited ordinance and range, any plane comming from the interior of China is also then limited by range. It does not matter how much more China spends on defence than India. What matters is who has a better airforce and what they bring in these theaters.

Thirdly, regarding Bangladesh, there is absolutely no way that BD would start aggressive posturing against India. Even if you want to start on this ridiculously hypothetical scenario, then let me put it bluntly, even if BD starts aggressive posturing, it doesnt make a damn difference. THey dont have the military either in the Army, or the Airforce or the Navy to make even tactical differences in the situation, let alone strategic ones. The IAF would overfly their airspace with impunity. The IN would be destroying their ports even if they think of making a move.

 

[jeypore]

That is a reasonable observation. But I think even Bangladesh is also moving along the militarization path. And the PLA spends much more on defence than India, increasing every year. Perhaps it is possible for the Indians to win or draw in a conventional territorial war with China if they are well lead and Pakistan sticks to high readiness levels only, but a drawn out affair with Pakistan also fully involved on the other side is completely another game.

Important aspect here is the technology capabilities of Bangladesh, it is not par with the world, and that changes the war sernario with Bangladesh, thus not formidable yet.

In terms of China with conventional warfare with India it would be difficult solely based on terrain, and they would have very limited access. So saying that, it would be air superiority that would be deciding factor with China first. Clearly, India bulk of spending is towards the air force and the Navy. For the Navy's equations is to cut the oil supply line for the Chinese, thus Gwadar port for China.

And certainly today India does have enough capacity to hold of Pakistan in any advancement. And India does have advantage of prolonging the war with Pakistan, while Pakistan does not. So the only startegy would be for Pakistan is massive attack at once, in order to not prolong the war. The Indian think tanks have already have calculated this senario.