India-France Rafale Deal Stalled

[UKBengali]

If this deal goes through as expected,I feel sorry for the french,its like robbing their years of research , their pride technologies ,even though we are paying a HUGE amount for that,I wouldn't do it,if I were Rafale.

It will take India up to a decade to be able to absorb this technology. We are looking at 2020-2025 before India is able to use this technology as a base for their own developments. By then it would be around 2 decades old and the French would have moved on. At the end of the day the Rafale is just a 4th generation jet, albeit one of the best.

 

[Koovie]

It will take India up to a decade to be able to absorb this technology. We are looking at 2020-2025 before India is able to use this technology as a base for their own developments. By then it would be around 2 decades old and the French would have moved on. At the end of the day the Rafale is just a 4th generation jet, albeit one of the best.

The Rafale is already a true 4.5 gen fighter with several 5th gen characteristics. And there is still plenty of room left for improvements.

 

[UKBengali]

The Rafale is already a true 4.5 gen fighter with several 5th gen characteristics. And there is still plenty of room left for improvements.

4.5 or not it is still a 4th generation plane as it lacks stealth and it's engines are not of a true 5th generation standard.

If India can get all the tech for this aircraft then it would have a good deal though but I am not sure that the French would part with their engine technology fully.

 

[arp2041]

what BS are you talking about? Economics? the price tag is $12 billion as disclosed unless you can enlist the details of the $8 billion difference. But the $8 billion ,however exaggerated it is, is likely to be charges for training, consultancy or fees for spare parts. And this is more than the $12 billion rip-off by the smart Frenchies

Is it really so hard to DIGEST for you???

The $12 billion tag was only the initial ESTIMATES by the GOI/MOD when the Tender of the MMRCA was issued around 2008, this price tag was based on the average price offered by the contenders. But that IAF has now gone for the second most priced ac in the MMRCA contenders (after ET). Just the fly away cost of F3 standards of Rafale which will be inducted into IAF will be more than 100 million dollars a PIECE. So for 126, it roughly comes out to be upwards of $12.6 billions in just ac. Than IAF has sure plans of inducting 60+ more, again $ 6+ billion in just ac cost, than there are plans for a naval MMRCA, in which Rafale-M will be the lead contender (b'coz it will already be inducted in IAF), if selected, IN will go for 60-70 of these, again $6+ billion JUST for ac itself.

Than there comes training cost, logistics, armament, TOT, MLU, 35+ years of attachment with one of the fastest growing economy, etc., etc., etc.........

We are Seriously talking about CLOSE to $30 billions at stake here (if we include the IN order as well).

You are right, French will be called the BIGGEST FOOLS if they don't welcome this deal with open arms.

 

[kurup]

4.5 or not it is still a 4th generation plane as it lacks stealth and it's engines are not of a true 5th generation standard.

If India can get all the tech for this aircraft then it would have a good deal though but I am not sure that the French would part with their engine technology fully.

Why should we get all the tech of Rafale which is just a 4G fighter according to you when we are already getting 5G technology through FGFA ??

 

[Speeder 2]

It will take India up to a decade to be able to absorb this technology. We are looking at 2020-2025 before India is able to use this technology as a base for their own developments. ....

way too optimistic.

it would take life time at the least to get most of tech right. then other would have already moved 1-2 generations further.

why? it's all about industrialisation. it takes normally 50 years for a potent mid-sized country to do so - just think S Korea for instance, population: about 40m, from 1950s-2,000 development in industries. yet can S korea make rafale with French tot today? NO!

India? with its current population and industrial potential, it would take 100 years at least just to start to dream about it.

 

[UKBengali]

way too optimistic.

it would take life time at the least to get most of tech right. then other would have already moved 1-2 generations further.

why? it's all about industrialisation. it takes normally 50 years for a potent mid-sized country to do so - just think S Korea for instance, population: about 40m, from 1950s-2,000 development in industries. yet can S korea make rafale with French tot today? NO!

India? with its current population and industrial potential, it would take 100 years at least just to start to dream about it.

I disagree and the reason is that India has already experience with the LCA and that was a partial success.

The airframe and fly-by-wire software is all Indian.

Radar was semi-successful and the technology transfer would help fill in gaps in their knowledge in this area.

As for other electronics, India has experience in developing a working mission computer for the SU=30MKI and has also been able to develop other systems too - think that was RWR.

Engine technology will be the sticking point as the French are unlikely to teach the Indians the "recipe" for developing modern turbofans. That is the "crown jewel" of aerospace technology and no-one will easily part with that secret.

As for the example of South Korea, that is not a good analogy as they are not able to lift a satellite into orbit without Russia help whereas India can due to it's decades of experience in this area. If India had not spent decades on the LCA, then I would have agreed with you.

 

[Speeder 2]

I disagree and the reason is that India has already experience with the LCA and that was a partial success.

The airframe and fly-by-wire software is all Indian.

Radar was semi-successful and the technology transfer would help fill in gaps in their knowledge in this area.

As for other electronics, India has experience in developing a working mission computer for the SU=30MKI and has also been able to develop other systems too - think that was RWR.

Engine technology will be the sticking point as the French are unlikely to teach the Indians the "recipe" for developing modern turbofans. That is the "crown jewel" of aerospace technology and no-one will easily part with that secret.

As for the example of South Korea, that is not a good analogy as they are not able to lift a satellite into orbit without Russia help whereas India can due to it's decades of experience in this area. If India had not spent decades on the LCA, then I would have agreed with you.

Seems that you still don't get the idea of the sheer scale and depth of building a "simple" airplane.


airplane making is NOT about some avionic, a radar and some fbw software.

airplane building is THE crown jewel of industrialisation,

simply because it reflects the generall levels of sophstications and competitiveness of ALL industries of a country. e.g.

if you make airplanes, you are one of world-leading industrial powers, simple as that.

oke, seems that turkey make f-16 on tot, or india make su-30mki on tot, but depending on what "kind" of tot, it means nothing, and/or doesn't reflect and prove their industrialisation levels that much.

there is only 1 boeing today (by US, with about 200 years industrialisation of USA)

there is only 1 airbus today ( led by France, UK, Germany... all euro powers together with also about 200 years industrialisation)

Ruskies make planes, but not at that level. don;t forget they have abour 150 years industrialisation, too.

China make planes, still a bit further down the ladder, even though china has been industrialsing by leaps and bounds for 30 years now trying to shrink those "200 years of tech knowhow and capability" into 50 or 80 years.


where do you think indian industries are under this context?

India is at least 50 years behind China on scale and depth of indutrialisation. tot of su-30mki is easy in fact as long as all the key works are done by russia and what india has to do is to put some parts together with the instructions of on-site rissian technicians and consultants. congo can make boeing too, as long as boeing sends them all body parts, materials,factories, infras, technicians and everything teaching them how to paint. it doesn't mean, however, that indian or congo industries are sophisticated enough already to do tot literally. ditto turkey.

LCA, arjun tank, rifle and bullets are some of the best examples. the key tech and parts of ALL of them are IMPORTED, including key designs. the only thin india has to do is to assemble them WITH some help of the coresponding foreign technicians. Now how many decades passed? where are they?

if you think tot some french 4+ gen tech will blunder india into a sort of world-leading industrial power as making such a sophisticated plane logically suggests, and as what indians are acturally think so, then somalia or congo can become industrial germany, too, who wouldn't, with only 25 billions bucks, and to hell with those "200 years"stupid hardship.

india's current industrial level is about 80 years or more behind what tot things like rafale requires. it's like you can fax all the tech knowhow of Renault sportscar to a countryside village which has only a couple of rickshaw maintenance stores, it can't make a Renault, or the tail of it, any time soon, at least not up the same standard, no matter how many gold bricks the villagers give you or how many technicians you will send down there.

 

[UKBengali]

^^^ And you are not realising that the Rafale would be decades old technology by the time India has fully absorbed it without the engine technology which is not for sale anyway.

Some Indians think that they can absorb 5th generation technology by 2020-2025 and you think they cannot even absorb 4th generation technology by 2020-25. I am somewhere in the middle of those two viewpoints.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Speeder 2]

self-delete

 

[Storm Force]

UK BENGALI

RE your comment about RAFALE being 4th gen technology

I believe the RAFALE when it is signed later this year WILL BE relevant for 30 years ie 2045.

Countries around are stil flying 50 year old technology SO RAFALE WIL BE STATE OF THE ART by 995 GLOBAL STANDARDS

 

[S-DUCT]

I disagree and the reason is that India has already experience with the LCA and that was a partial success.

The airframe and fly-by-wire software is all Indian.

Radar was semi-successful and the technology transfer would help fill in gaps in their knowledge in this area.

As for other electronics, India has experience in developing a working mission computer for the SU=30MKI and has also been able to develop other systems too - think that was RWR.

Engine technology will be the sticking point as the French are unlikely to teach the Indians the "recipe" for developing modern turbofans. That is the "crown jewel" of aerospace technology and no-one will easily part with that secret.

As for the example of South Korea, that is not a good analogy as they are not able to lift a satellite into orbit without Russia help whereas India can due to it's decades of experience in this area. If India had not spent decades on the LCA, then I would have agreed with you.

^^
BTW,avionics and EW suites developed by DARE for LCA are also successful.
EW suite,mission computer,radar computer,IFF,MFD are all india's contribution in SU-30MKI platform.

 

[Abingdonboy]

4.5 or not it is still a 4th generation plane as it lacks stealth and it's engines are not of a true 5th generation standard.

If India can get all the tech for this aircraft then it would have a good deal though but I am not sure that the French would part with their engine technology fully.

It has many 5th gen features both in production/operation and in development. The Rafales sensor fusion (SPECTRA suite) is said to be superior to the F-22s, if not actually more capable in a serious way. The US are willing to admit this. Then the AESA radar the Rafale brings will be a game changer in the region (yes the SUPER MKIs will have AESA too) and in combo with other IAF a/c the Radale is going to well and truly cement the IAF as he premier AF of the region. In a recent paper I read a leading F-22 department head said the 3 advantages the F-22 has over the F-15,F-16 and 4th gen fighters are

1) Sensor fusion, signifcantly improves the lethality of the man and machine and reduces pilot workload
2) Superior flight performance, the likes of higher AoA with the thanks if TVC aswell as the Supercruise ability that allows the Raptor to travel signifcant distances in shorter time takes without burning through its fuel and this having enough fuel to fight with once it arrives on station
3) lower RCS with the key being internal weapons carriage. Means F-22s can lead the fight into enemy territory without running the risk of heavy losses and,in short, the F-22 can see the enemy become the enemy sees the F-22.


Yes the Rafale calls down on the third area as of carries its weapons in a conventionally external manner. However you have to say that for 1) and 2) there's almost nothing in it and in man ways the Rafale is just behind the F-22 and actually ahead in other areas. Additionally Dassualt have ambitious plans to further bridge the gap to a fully fledged 5 th gen fighter with TVC engines, enclosed weapons pods, CFTs etc and with this $12-20 BILLION-+ they are going to get from India these upgrades/developments are all but assured as the French have a dire need for these developments-they have no 5th gen fighter procurement on the horizon (unlike the IAF) and as such need to devlop their workhorse (Rafale) to keep themselves relevant and effective.

 

[UKBengali]

UK BENGALI

RE your comment about RAFALE being 4th gen technology

I believe the RAFALE when it is signed later this year WILL BE relevant for 30 years ie 2045.

Countries around are stil flying 50 year old technology SO RAFALE WIL BE STATE OF THE ART by 995 GLOBAL STANDARDS

The Rafale deal with be a very good one if India can get the French to part with the secrets of the technology, even without the engine. It is both to do filling in the gaps in the Indian air-force numbers and also to get the technology.

India is willing to give France up to 20 billion dollars so the French would have to give away most of its technology in return. After-all India can go elsewhere for planes and the French are in really serious economic trouble now.

As for the Rafale being relevant in 2045, I would have to disagree as countries like Pakistan and maybe even BD would start to be equipped with 5th generation fighters like J-31 in the next decade which will have an advantage over Rafale due to their stealth design. Not saying that Rafale won't have a chance against fighters like J-31 but it would be at a massive disadvantage.

 

[Speeder 2]

^^

simply put, one can not industrialise by "purchasing", or by call centres, or basic code-writing, talking into superpowerdom, else everyone would have already done so.


true that india has tata that just accquired british steel a couple of years ago, and now india can make some motobikes with the help of nissan or honda, and it can make some bikes and some steel now ( in the UK site)... and tata nano and banglore call cetres of course... but make no mistake that somehow it is industrialsing, not even started.


In fact there are only not 4 and 3 halfs industrialised countries who have industries that are so complete and sophisticated enough that are capable to deal with , or have potential to largely absorb, techs like rafale in a short order – 4: US, Russia, France, China . 3 halfs: UK, Germany, Japan.

Not surprisingly there are the current world’s leading industrial powers.

there is only 1 way to industrialise, the hard way, the way that “smarta$$” Indians think that they can shortcut somehow. That is to develop every and all industries and sub-industries, tiny branch , every single facet, step by step, generation by generation, consistent hardship for a very long long time…

Ignoring the IQ thing for simplicity, I’d say for a mid-sized country about 40m like S Korean "industrial miracle" – that process is proven to be 50 years at least, if one words as hard as s Koreans, and as smart as they are.

for a big country like india with 1.2 billion though, it's about 100 years at least...

unless one can completely do what china just did - 10% annual growth ( >15% industrial growth) for 30 years straight – an industrialisation miracle that world had never seen in the entire history.

India can't manage 2 years in straight yet in contrast. And they are talking about absobe rafale tech ( i.e. representing the fruit of 200 years accumulated tech, know-how, management, infras...across all industries of France) within 10-15 years. if that is not called psychopathic outright delusional, i dunno what is.