India Eyes Su-30 AESA Upgrade

[MZUBAIR]

Well off course it is not outstanding for 2010 , i mean the aircraft specs were frozen in 1996 , and since its delivery in 1998 , it has not been upgraded why do u think India is going for MLU in 2012
MKI was state of the art in yr 2000 , but with same spec it can not be classified as state of the art today
By the way MLU has been approved for only first 100 Aircraft at the cost of Rs 10800 Crore or 2.4 Billion USD ie 24 Million USD each
which is more expensive than Mig29 Upgrade but cheaper than Mirage 2000 upgrade

Finally It is not the quality of MKI which is the concern but the number of MKIs which currently stands at 270 by 2017 and could go to 300+ if there is delay in LCA MK2

Upgradation will make it more dangerous

 

[RPK]

Upgradation will make it more dangerous

you mean for Indian enemies

 

[ganimi kawa]

After a disastrous first page, this thread is really progressing very well. Here are a few points about the AESA and PESA muddle with respect to SU 30 mki.

1. Current radar on su 30 mki is NIIP N011M Bars
a. The design of the N011M bars antenna like the earlier N007 antenna consists of two separate electronically controlled arrays, an X-band radar and a L-band transponder.
b.N011M has a search range of 350 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air to air mode. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.



2. The radar on Su 35 bm is the Irbis, also a PESA but with higher power requirements than bars thus not compatible with mki engines.
a.Irbis-E can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at one time at ranges near 400 kilometers, and attack up to 12.
b.Tikhomirov NIIP has provided the ability to spot super-low observable targets with RCS equal to 0.01 square meters at ranges out to 90 kilometers.



3. AESA in general will have higher energy requirement than a similar PESA as the heat generated is much more and thus more energy is required for cooling purposes. (Cooling is indeed the achilles heel of AESA!)


4. So unless we upgrade the engines on the mki, it is not possible to have AESA radars with specs equal to the bars. However, even a moderate decrease in the range will be acceptable for an AESA.


5. Note that the new sukhois are much more costly than the earlier ones, so a new engine and monster radar like the irbis are a distinct possibilty.

 

[Storm Force]

Not worried about 270 SU30MKI

Says MZUBAIR

India has 130 Su30mki already today

Versis wat 6 F16/52... (COMPARABLE PAF fghters at best)

Bar USA no nation on earth would be confident taking on 272 of those beauties and that includes the like of China Israel or RAF.. TOO

 

[jha]

Since we are talking about RADARs , I'll have to b*tt in..

The principal advantage of AESA radar over a PESA is not always Range. Infact saying that AESA offers greater range over PESA is somehow a wrong notion
.
The main advantage which it offers is More no. of targets can be tracked by using same power.
Plus the monstrous radar cross section which MKI has will be gone by very much extent. According to me the biggest villain in the MKI is its extremely powerful radar which being a PESA emits so much power that the other plane can passively detect it from almost the same range MKI detects that plane.

Each element of an AESA radar can be adjusted wrt when and how and it is transmitting. So you have 1500+ elements that can transmit at different frequencies and power levels. Each element individually operating below the threshold of the opponent's radar warning receiver ( or, simply receiver ) set . The computer then combines these returns for the overall target picture. So the opponents RWR may only see 3 or 4 watts of power, and only for a very brief instant, compared to the kilowatts that the passive array is cranking out on a fixed frequency. The AESA is not putting out enough energy for passive detection. The oponent may think there's something out there, but he will not know what or where. He will be confused that if it's a false alarm, or, what..?

However as someone said above that The main problem with AESA is cooling. Well that can be taken care of by switching off a no. of modules and allow them to cool and be available when required.

 

[jha]

4. So unless we upgrade the engines on the mki, it is not possible to have AESA radars with specs equal to the bars. However, even a moderate decrease in the range will be acceptable for an AESA.

I have a slightly different view on this...
We CAN integrate AESA radar with same specs on MKI.. We will just have to make sure that all the T/R modules are not switched ON all the time. All the modules can be switched On at crucial time and once we have a lock we can allow some of the ,modules to cool down. Infact the other guy will not even know that he is already painted..

 

[Jungibaaz]

Not worried about 270 SU30MKI

Says MZUBAIR

India has 130 Su30mki already today

Versis wat 6 F16/52... (COMPARABLE PAF fghters at best)

Bar USA no nation on earth would be confident taking on 272 of those beauties and that includes the like of China Israel or RAF.. TOO

try 60 f-16s (number could rise to 100), 250 jf-17 and 36 initial J-10b/FC-20.

plz don't underestimate PAF

 

[Devianz]

try 60 f-16s (number could rise to 100), 250 jf-17 and 36 initial J-10b/FC-20.

plz don't underestimate PAF

How about comparing those with
~300 MKI
~200 MMRCA
~300 PAK-FA
~69 MiG-29SMT
~50 2000-5 Mk 2
~200 LCA Mk 2
~250 AMCA

See, I can also write down fighters that are not currently in our inventory.

 

[Indian-Devil]

try 60 f-16s (number could rise to 100), 250 jf-17 and 36 initial J-10b/FC-20.

plz don't underestimate PAF

No one is underestimating PAF, Both countries has different approach for different future priorities.
In next decade IAF will have much much better fighters, around 270 Su-30MKI, 126 MRCA, initial batch of PAK-FA, Tejas Mark-11 along with Mark-1 and many more in terms of Awacs, Mid air refueler, net centrinc initialization steps etc. No one can compare them any of neighbor countries.

On SU-30 MKI Upgrades i think new engine should be in place for upgrades along with AESA radars. As till now no details are clear, AESA radar, engine, smart skin etc. But in my personal view AESA would be there in upgrades, or what else can be upgraded from present configuration. In current config. it has powerful PESA radar, good engine, good war load capacity. Only small disadvantage i see for Su-30Mki is its RCS, IAF should look into it in upgrade details if feasible.
If someone has a source for upgrade details, pls share.

 

[Devianz]

Hello experts,
Are you sure that current MKI engines cannot operate an AESA radar with similar detection ranges as the BARS? Yes it's not powerful enough to power the Irbis-E and probably not Irbis-E AESA.
But if we look at F-15SE with comparable engine power to the MKI, it is able to power APG-63(V3) AESA which is better than our BARS in every field?

 

[jha]

Hello experts,
Are you sure that current MKI engines cannot operate an AESA radar with similar detection ranges as the BARS? Yes it's not powerful enough to power the Irbis-E and probably not Irbis-E AESA.
But if we look at F-15SE with comparable engine power to the MKI, it is able to power APG-63(V3) AESA which is better than our BARS in every field?

It CAN power an AESA radar with similar detection range.

 

[Indian-Devil]

Hello experts,
Are you sure that current MKI engines cannot operate an AESA radar with similar detection ranges as the BARS? Yes it's not powerful enough to power the Irbis-E and probably not Irbis-E AESA.
But if we look at F-15SE with comparable engine power to the MKI, it is able to power APG-63(V3) AESA which is better than our BARS in every field?

I am no expert on this, but i read some articles where its mentioned that Current Su-30Mki engine donot produce much power that is required by Irbis AESA radar.
As long as F-15SE is concerned, there is a lot of difference between these 2 aircraft although BARS is much better radar in PESA class but not sure its better than the matured US AESA radar which is on SE. As in various exerices with US, BARS radars on Su-30MKI were not utilized as per reports.

 

[Indian-Devil]

How about comparing those with
~300 MKI
~200 MMRCA
~300 PAK-FA
~69 MiG-29SMT
~50 2000-5 Mk 2
~200 LCA Mk 2
~250 AMCA

See, I can also write down fighters that are not currently in our inventory.

Yaar be calm. Lets not discuss off topic things in threads. Each country has its own threats and available options to fullfill them. Why to compare 2 countries defence spendings and war planes.

 

[Devianz]

It CAN power an AESA radar with similar detection range.

So then what's the problem in upgrading to an AESA? There have been numerous reports on a BARS AESA variant and a Zhuk-ASE AESA variant for Su-27/30.

 

[Jungibaaz]

How about comparing those with
~300 MKI
~200 MMRCA
~300 PAK-FA
~69 MiG-29SMT
~50 2000-5 Mk 2
~200 LCA Mk 2
~250 AMCA

See, I can also write down fighters that are not currently in our inventory.

You talk like you have all of your fighters on the Pakistani border... You also have China to worry about so I think j-10bs, 100f-16s and 250 jf-17s are enough of a match.

Ohh and btw...we have ordered all the planes I listed whereas...AMCA (paper plane), MMRCA deal is still not near finalization, and PAK FA won't come before 2017.

rest assure we will get J-XX in time to deal with a fifth gen threat.