India drops out of 2012 PISA test

[fast]

Yes all Indians are happy.

Who would make such an idiotic statement? Who are you to speak for all Indians? Ignorance is bliss; no wonder you act happy.

 

[Audio]

It depends on the content that is tested. There is skill based education and there is content based education. Not sure how it is tested in PISA. And both have their positives and negatives.

Math is universal language. By definition the problems facing your pupils shouldnt be any different then the ones other pupils face. Now if you want to say, primary educational system in India sucks (it doesnt teach kids the right stuff) i could agree that it is the reason you performed bad.

But looking for excuses in you tube videos and "experimental research" at entry level math/reading is laughable.

 

[fast]

I didnt misread his post. Whatever I said in 2 lines, I explained in the bigger post.

So you are saying you completely agree with his summary of your BS post, "Indians are so brilliant and people from OECD countries are dim." You are an idiot, walking right into his verbal trap.

 

[mfreak]

Who would make such an idiotic statement? Who are you to speak for all Indians? Ignorance is bliss; no wonder you act happy.

And who are you to speak for all Indians, while not being an Indian yourself? I guess ignorance is indeed bliss. And yes am indeed quite happy with my life ^^

Math is universal language. By definition the problems facing your pupils shouldnt be any different then the ones other pupils face. Now if you want to say, primary educational system in India sucks (it doesnt teach kids the right stuff) i could agree.

Going by the same argument, you might wanna explain why students from the OECD countries still score less in Math in standardized tests like the GMAT, GRE etc compared to Indians? If you wanna say that OECD countries have an educational system that sucks in imparting strong fundamentals then I could agree.

So you are saying you completely agree with his summary of your BS post, "Indians are so brilliant and people from OECD countries are dim." You are an idiot, walking right into his verbal trap.

I quoted the right post that I was referring to, and if you cant even read and comprehend then probably that quote "Indians are so brilliant and people from OECD countries are dim." must probably be right !

 

[illusion8]

I was obviously talking about Germany and not about India and South Asia as we did badly 12 years ago that caused an uproar through the media as well as the society and we have improved a bit through many reforms and still we are far from being content with the last result.

Ignorance is not a good defence of ones failure.

I had you in my ignore list so did not exactly read your reply with much attention nor your earlier posts on this thread, oh ok so you were talking about Germany then - looks like the Germans improved on PISA good for them bravo.

 

[Audio]

Going by the same argument, you might wanna explain why students from the OECD countries still score less in Math in standardized tests like the GMAT, GRE etc compared to Indians? If you wanna say that OECD countries have an educational system that sucks in imparting strong fundamentals then I could agree.

The Graduate Management Admission Test (GMAT, play /ˈdʒiːmæt/ JEE-mat) is a standardized, computer-based assessment.[1][2] More than 5,400 programs offered by more than 1,500 universities and institutions in 83 countries use the GMAT exam as part of the selection criteria for their programs site. Business schools use the test as a criterion for admission into a wide range of graduate management programs, including MBA, Master of Accountancy, and Master of Finance programs. The GMAT exam is administered in secure, standardized test centers in more than 110 countries around the world.[citation needed] On June 5, 2012, the Graduate Management Admission Council (GMAC) introduced an integrated reasoning section to the exam that is designed to measure a test taker’s ability to evaluate data presented in new formats and multiple sources.[3] GMAC continues to perform validity studies to statistically verify that the exam predicts success in business school programs

GMAT ^^ is a university test? We are talking about last year of elementary school tests? confused much?

I'd be most grateful if you can back up your claim with a source as i have not been able to find one (admittedly i looked for 3 minutes only).

 

[fast]

And who are you to speak for all Indians, while not being an Indian yourself?

When did I claim to speak for all Indians? You are the one claiming to speak for all Indians that they are all very happy.

I guess ignorance is indeed bliss. And yes am indeed quite happy with my life

Indeed you are very ignorant.

 

[mfreak]

GMAT ^^ is a university test? We are talking about last year of elementary school tests? confused much?

I'd be most grateful if you can back up your claim with a source as i have not been able to find one (admittedly i looked for 3 minutes only).

It is an entrance test. To management institutions. GRE is another test used for entrance purposes for post graduate studies in engineering and in some cases for management. Its just like the SAT although content might differ.

As far as I know, because Ive taken the GMAT, it tests high school math. And it is the standard the world over. Whether its North America, Europe or Asia all schools use those scores and the test is in the same format the world over. Chinese and Indians score the highest in these tests. Especially in Math.

So there is a discrepancy here. In some tests Indians do well, and in other kinds of tests they dont. So we not only need to pay attention to the kind of test the PISA is, but also see what it really indicates. Does it indicate capability, IQ, intelligence? I dont think so.

Is it indicative of the curriculum? Maybe. Is it necessary to make changes? Depends on what the analysis is. But going by some statistics and scores is the wrong way to address the issue. We need to ask questions and then go for changes if necessary and wherever necessary. Thats my whole point. The other two posters are arguing Indians are not that bright, which is BS.

Indeed you are very ignorant.

Look I dont wanna get into a pissing match here. What is your whole point anyway? That Indians are dumb? Yeah you can go jerk off to that idea.

 

[Audio]

It is an entrance test. To management institutions. GRE is another test used for entrance purposes for post graduate studies in engineering and in some cases for management. Its just like the SAT although content might differ.

As far as I know, because Ive taken the GMAT, it tests high school math. And it is the standard the world over. Whether its North America, Europe or Asia all schools use those scores and the test is in the same format the world over. Chinese and Indians score the highest in these tests. Especially in Math.

So there is a discrepancy here. In some tests Indians do well, and in other kinds of tests they dont. So we not only need to pay attention to the kind of test the PISA is, but also see what it really indicates. Does it indicate capability, IQ, intelligence? I dont think so.

Is it indicative of the curriculum? Maybe. Is it necessary to make changes? Depends on what the analysis is. But going by some statistics and scores is the wrong way to address the issue. We need to ask questions and then go for changes if necessary and wherever necessary. Thats my whole point. The other two posters are arguing Indians are not that bright, which is BS.

universities dont test 15 year olds for acceptance.......SAT isn't the same level as PISA as well.....

There is a simple explanation....your primary education does suck, but the cream of the crop makes it through high schol pretty well and does good on university acceptance tests. Inevitably, out of 1.2 billion some should be smart and have the right stuff to learn rigorously.

 

[mfreak]

universities dont test 15 year olds for acceptance.......SAT isn't the same level as PISA as well.....

I am talking about the kind of education, style of tests etc., Indians do well in standardized tests. I am not sure if PISA is a standardized test or a skill based test. Maybe it isnt a standardized test format which most Indians are used to.

your primary education does suck

Depends which kind of curriculum you get into. We have state board, CBSE and ICSE syllabuses. CBSE and ICSE are very good. State board not so good compared to both. India could have very well sent students from the CBSE and ICSE schools to take the test, which could have improved scores. So how much this test is indicative and what it is indicative of, is debatable. It certainly is not indicative of individual capabilities.

 

[Audio]

I am talking about the kind of education, style of tests etc., Indians do well in standardized tests. I am not sure if PISA is a standardized test or a skill based test. Maybe it isnt a standardized test format which most Indians are used to.



Depends which kind of curriculum you get into. We have state board, CBSE and ICSE syllabuses. CBSE and ICSE are very good. State board not so good compared to both. India could have very well sent students from the CBSE and ICSE schools to take the test, which could have improved scores. So how much this test is indicative and what it is indicative of, is debatable. It certainly is not indicative of individual capabilities.

The PISA mathematics literacy test asks students to apply their mathematical knowledge to solve problems set in various real-world contexts. To solve the problems students must activate a number of mathematical competencies as well as a broad range of mathematical content knowledge. TIMSS, on the other hand, measures more traditional classroom content such as an understanding of fractions and decimals and the relationship between them (curriculum attainment). PISA claims to measure education's application to real-life problems and lifelong learning (workforce knowledge).

In the reading test, "OECD/PISA does not measure the extent to which 15-year-old students are fluent readers or how competent they are at word recognition tasks or spelling". Instead, they should be able to "construct, extend and reflect on the meaning of what they have read across a wide range of continuous and non-continuous texts"

10 characters.

 

[mfreak]

PISA claims to measure education's application to real-life problems and lifelong learning (workforce knowledge).

Right. So its a skill based test. Indian education is heavy on content and fundamentals, not real world application oriented.

But then again, even a purely skill based curriculum has its cons. So adopting skill based education and scoring high on PISA still wont cut it.

Maybe there should be a mix of both.

 

[Audio]

What cons? It doesnt produce brainwashed robots that are completely disfunctional in real life?

What good is dictating Pi down to the 100th decimal if you cant make yourself a meal.

 

[mfreak]

What cons? It doesnt produce brainwashed robots that are completely disfunctional in real life?

What good is dictating Pi down to the 100th decimal if you cant make yourself a meal.

So are you saying Indians are brainwashed robots that are completely dysfunctional? I think skill based education results in that

Skill based education system does not give you a strong idea of fundamentals. One of those things that it leads to is inflexibility in your work life. For example, an Indian IT engineer is rarely an expert in what he does, but he is very flexible and adapts much more easily and is easy to train for different roles.

An American who has specialized in his/her skill, generally does extremely well in that particular area and is usually THE goto person for that particular technology, but does not adapt that easily to changes in requirements which finally results in them losing their jobs.So when we are talking about skill based education, you need to understand skills tend to be highly specific. And education solely based on skills is not gonna work. You would need both knowledge as well as skills.

So that is why for example, Indians that come with a background in knowledge based education, heavy on content and fundamentals, transitioning to skills based post graduate education in the US do extremely well.

 

[Audio]

So are you saying Indians are brainwashed robots that are completely dysfunctional? I think skill based education results in that

No, that's your way of seeing what i said.

Skill based education system does not give you a strong idea of fundamentals. One of those things that it leads to is inflexibility in your work life. For example, an Indian IT engineer is rarely an expert in what he does, but he is very flexible and adapts much more easily and is easy to train for different roles.

An American who has specialized in his/her skill, generally does extremely well in that particular area and is usually THE goto person for that particular technology, but does not adapt that easily to changes in requirements which finally results in them losing their jobs.So when we are talking about skill based education, you need to understand skills tend to be highly specific. And education solely based on skills is not gonna work. You would need both knowledge as well as skills.

So that is why for example, Indians that come with a background in knowledge based education, heavy on content and fundamentals, transitioning to skills based post graduate education in the US do extremely well.

To solve the problems students must activate a number of mathematical competencies as well as a broad range of mathematical content knowledge.

Test includes knowing the fundamentals and using/manipulating them in "virtual" real life applications/problem solving.

In regards to the specialized engineer vs a interdisciplinary one:

Yes, it's a good thing to have people that have experience in various fields and bring a great deal of insider knowledge from multiple places to the job, but i think true breakthroughs require a lot of time investment and if you keep jumping from one field to the other there just cant be enough time.

A good example would be http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/oct/09/physics-nobel-prize-quantum-computing, two professors, all they do is lecture at universities and think. Both are quite old, it has taken them an entire lifetime to come up with this groundbreaking research.