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India drops out of 2012 PISA test

Test includes knowing the fundamentals and using/manipulating them in "virtual" real life applications/problem solving.

Yeah but knowledge based education is something like:

Derive the formula for calculating the area of a circle.

Skill based education is something like:

You are asked to design a new set of coins. All coins will be circular and coloured silver, but of different diameters.

Researchers have found out that an ideal coin system meets the following requirements:

· diameters of coins should not be smaller than 15 mm and not be larger than 45 mm.

· given a coin, the diameter of the next coin must be at least 30% larger.

· the minting machinery can only produce coins with diameters of a whole number of millimetres (e.g. 17 mm is allowed, 17.3 mm is not).

You need to know both. PISA is like the second example. And the second one is indeed a question from PISA math. For that its enough if you know the formula for the area of a circle or its circumference etc., not how it is derived.

The above is just for an example

In regards to the specialized engineer vs a interdisciplinary one:

Yes, it's a good thing to have people that have experience in various fields and bring a great deal of insider knowledge to the job, but i think true breakthroughs require a lot of time investment and if you keep jumping from one field to the other there just cant be enough time.

Its not about experience in various fields. For example, I studied in an Indian institution and did my electrical engineering. When I got out, I could talk a lot about concepts like Field Theory, Power electronics etc, but practically I didnt know how anything was done in an industry. My knowledge about equations and formulae didnt help.

If you see in the west, most people will attend internships, to practically see how things are done in the real world. That is skills based education.

Both are required. But the ones graduating from the west, will only be electrical engineers. I did my electrical engineering, moved to Software engineering and then went on to do my MBA and ended up in a Marketing role. Completely unrelated fields. It gave me flexibility to change careers easily.
 
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Both are required. But the ones graduating from the west, will only be electrical engineers. I did my electrical engineering, moved to Software engineering and then went on to do my MBA and ended up in a Marketing role. Completely unrelated fields. It gave me flexibility to change careers easily.

I had a gf once, she had economics college finished, was in last year architecture college, was a singer in a semi proffesional girl band, worked as a radio host on the station i worked and was hot as hell. True story.
She was 24 at that time. She will never make any breakthroughs in any of those fields. Same with you.

But i understand your point about education anyhow.
 
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She will never make any breakthroughs in any of those fields. Same with you.

I dont intend to. If I did, I would have pursued an MS in a specialized field and would have done a PhD in some research area. And maybe continued on from there, to see if I can make any breakthroughs.

BTW most of these folks that come out of skills based education system, dont achieve anything too. They stay in the same field. Breakthroughs are different. You need an entrepreneurial and innovative nature to do it. Not to mention motivation in that direction and knowledge. Again, to make breakthroughs especially scientific ones, you need strong fundamentals and knowledge.
 
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I dont intend to. If I did, I would have pursued an MS in a specialized field and would have done a PhD in some research area. And maybe continued on from there, to see if I can make any breakthroughs.

BTW most of these folks that come out of skills based education system, dont achieve anything too. They stay in the same field. Breakthroughs are different. You need an entrepreneurial and innovative nature to do it. Not to mention motivation in that direction and knowledge. Again, to make breakthroughs especially scientific ones, you need strong fundamentals and knowledge.

You need time in addition to innovative nature and spirit. Both can be influenced by outside factors, time cannot.
I dont understand the relevance of your post. :(

I dont think you evaluated PISA correctly as a skill based test anyhow. It tests both knowledge of fundamentals and their application in solving various problems that combine solutions from various disciplines of the same field.

That has nothing to do with skill based or knowledge based differences because it does both. You just like decided in one post it is skill based and have been dragging me in this offtopic direction for the last few posts.
 
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China: The world's cleverest country?

China's results in international education tests - which have never been published - are "remarkable", says Andreas Schleicher, responsible for the highly-influential Pisa tests.

These tests, held every three years by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, measure pupils' skills in reading, numeracy and science.

Pisa tests - the Programme for International Student Assessment - have become the leading international benchmark.

The findings indicate that China has an education system that is overtaking many Western countries
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While there has been intense interest in China's economic and political development, this provides the most significant insight into how it is teaching the next generation.

'Incredible resilience'

The Pisa 2009 tests showed that Shanghai was top of the international education rankings.

But it was unclear whether Shanghai and another chart-topper, Hong Kong, were unrepresentative regional showcases.

Mr Schleicher says the unpublished results reveal that pupils in other parts of China are also performing strongly.

"Even in rural areas and in disadvantaged environments, you see a remarkable performance."

In particular, he said the test results showed the "resilience" of pupils to succeed despite tough backgrounds - and the "high levels of equity" between rich and poor pupils
.

"Shanghai is an exceptional case - and the results there are close to what I expected. But what surprised me more were the results from poor provinces that came out really well. The levels of resilience are just incredible.

"In China, the idea is so deeply rooted that education is the key to mobility and success
."

Investing in the future

The results for disadvantaged pupils would be the envy of any Western country, he says.

Mr Schleicher is confident of the robustness of this outline view of China's education standards
.

In an attempt to get a representative picture, tests were taken in nine provinces, including poor, middle-income and wealthier regions.

The Chinese government has so far not allowed the OECD to publish the actual data.

But Mr Schleicher says the results reveal a picture of a society investing individually and collectively in education.

On a recent trip to a poor province in China, he says he saw that schools were often the most impressive buildings.

He says in the West, it is more likely to be a shopping centre.

"You get an image of a society that is investing in its future, rather than in current consumption."

There were also major cultural differences when teenagers were asked about why people succeeded at school.

"North Americans tell you typically it's all luck. 'I'm born talented in mathematics, or I'm born less talented so I'll study something else.'

"In Europe, it's all about social heritage: 'My father was a plumber so I'm going to be a plumber'.

"In China, more than nine out of 10 children tell you: 'It depends on the effort I invest and I can succeed if I study hard
.'

"They take on responsibility. They can overcome obstacles and say 'I'm the owner of my own success', rather than blaming it on the system."

Education's World Cup

This year will see another round of Pisa tests - it's like World Cup year for international education. And Mr Schleicher's tips for the next fast-improving countries are Brazil, Turkey and Poland.

Mr Schleicher, a German based in the OECD's Paris headquarters, has become the godfather of such global education comparisons
.

Armed with a spreadsheet and an impeccably polite manner, his opinions receive close attention in the world's education departments.

The White House responded to the last Pisa results with President Barack Obama's observation that the nation which "out-educates us today will out-compete us tomorrow".

The next round of global league tables will test 500,000 pupils in more than 70 countries - with the results to be published late next year.

Education ministers will be looking nervously at the outcome.

"In the past, politicians could always say we're doing better than last year - everyone could be a success," he says, describing the tendency for national results to rise each year.

The arrival of Pisa tests sent an icy draught through these insulated corridors.

No excuses


Perhaps the biggest discomfort of all was for Germany - where "Pisa shock" described the discovery that their much vaunted education system was distinctly average.

And the biggest change in attitude, he says, has been the United States - once with no interest in looking abroad, now enthusiastically borrowing ideas from other countries.

"Education is a field dominated by beliefs and traditions, it's inward looking. As a system you can find all kinds of excuses and explanations for not succeeding.

"The idea of Pisa was to take away all the excuses.

"People say you can only improve an education system over 25 years - but look at Poland and Singapore, which have improved in a very short time, we've seen dramatic changes."

The biggest lesson of the Pisa tests, he says, is showing there is nothing inevitable about how schools perform.

"Poverty is no longer destiny. You can see this at the level of economies, such as South Korea, Singapore."

Fair comparison?

A criticism of such rankings has been that it is unfair. How can an impoverished developing country be compared with the stockpiled multiple advantages of a wealthy Scandinavian nation?

Here Mr Schleicher makes a significant distinction. It might not be fair, but such comparisons are extremely relevant. "Relevance and fairness are not the same thing," he says.

Youngsters in the poorest countries are still competing in a global economy. "It's a terrible thing to take away the global perspective."

He also attacks the idea of accepting lower expectations for poorer children - saying this was the "big trap in the 1970s".

"It was giving the disadvantaged child an excuse - you come from a poor background, so we'll lower the horizon for you, we'll make it easier.

"But that child has still got to compete in a national labour market.

"This concept of 'fairness' is deeply unfair - because by making life easier for children from difficult circumstances, we lower their life chances."

'Sorting mechanism'

So why are the rising stars in Asia proving so successful?

Mr Schleicher says it's a philosophical difference - expecting all pupils to make the grade, rather than a "sorting mechanism" to find a chosen few.

He says anyone can create an education system where a few at the top succeed, the real challenge is to push through the entire cohort.

In China, he says this means using the best teachers in the toughest schools.

The shifting in the balance of power will be measured again with Pisa 2012, with pupils sitting tests from Stockholm to Seoul, London to Los Angeles, Ankara to Adelaide.

"I don't think of Pisa as being about ranking, it tells you what's possible. How well could we be doing?"

BBC News - China: The world's cleverest country?
 
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I dont think you evaluated PISA correctly as a skill based test anyhow. It tests both knowledge of fundamentals and their application in solving various problems that combine solutions from various disciplines of the same field.

That has nothing to do with skill based or knowledge based differences because it does both. You just like decided in one post it is skill based and have been dragging me in this offtopic direction for the last few posts.

I am not dragging the post offtopic. Am saying the kind of test PISA is, is more application oriented. Indian education is more content oriented. Concepts are constantly beat into children, without knowing why and how they are used. I am saying you need to know concepts as well as apply them. Tests like the PISA claim to test fundamentals, but like I showed an example above, they test practical application of it more.

I dont understand the relevance of your post. :(

The relevance of my post was to convey that a skills based education system actually helps you transition into work better, but does not necessarily mean you are gonna win the nobel prize for anything (as an example). It was meant to say, that infact you need both knowledge as well as skills based education in order to be that successful.
 
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The PISA test results would have been vastly different if the students were from Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi, Chennai etc. Because the cultural gap between 2nd tier/rural students is HUGE. I know friends from Mysore who scored much better marks than me, but their knowledge about the world outside Mysore? Zero. Skills other than academics? Zero. Just zero! All they know is derivations, definitions, and formulas. WTF! They are robots.... not human beings. They have no entrepreneurship skills. Their creativity is suppressed. Parents discourage kids from even reading newspapers and novels, claiming it a waste of time. Why? Lack of awareness.

With this mentality, we are not going anywhere.

Thank god I studied in Bangalore. When I first moved here from Mysore, I experienced a cultural shock. The school I studied in Bangalore, is brutal, unmerciful, and cut-throat - filled with popularity contests, who's rich and 'hi5' contests. Even if you aren't cool at first, it makes you into a confident, bold, cool, and highly competitive individual. Studying there for years in that sort of environment prepared me for the future. All my classmates are doing well in good medical and engg colls today, dozens of them even got into NITs and IIT. What about my Mysore friends who all scored 10/10 in CBSE? Nope. Not that spectacular.

My friends back in Mysore? They will probably send their applications to some boring office and work there, leading mediocre lives. Why? Because most of our school don't produce skilled and healthy adult humans, all they produce are well-oiled robots. This has to change.
 
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The PISA test results would have been vastly different if the students were from Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi, Chennai etc. Because the cultural gap between 2nd tier/rural students is HUGE. I know friends from Mysore who scored much better marks than me, but their knowledge about the world outside Mysore? Zero. Skills other than academics? Zero. Just zero! All they know is derivations, definitions, and formulas. WTF! They are robots.... not human beings. They have no entrepreneurship skills. Their creativity is suppressed. Parents discourage kids from even reading newspapers and novels, claiming it a waste of time. Why? Lack of awareness.

With this mentality, we are not going anywhere.

Thank god I studied in Bangalore. When I first moved here from Mysore, I experienced a cultural shock. The school I studied in Bangalore, is brutal, unmerciful, and cut-throat - filled with popularity contests, who's rich and 'hi5' contests. Even if you aren't cool at first, it makes you into a confident, bold, cool, and highly competitive individual. Studying there for years in that sort of environment prepared me for the future. All my classmates are doing well in good medical and engg colls today, dozens of them even got into NITs and IIT. What about my Mysore friends who all scored 10/10 in CBSE? Nope. Not that spectacular.

My friends back in Mysore? They will probably send their applications to some boring office and work there, leading mediocre lives. Why? Because most of our school don't produce skilled and healthy adult humans, all they produce are well-oiled robots. This has to change.

Exactly. The school system has to impart certain skills into the students. Not just base it on content.

But then again, in a very flexible school system such as the west, which concentrate on skills the students want to develop you end up knowledgeable in one field but not in others. Which is also bad.
 
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The PISA test results would have been vastly different if the students were from Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi, Chennai etc.

The PISA test wants to know what is the level of all students in one country, not just the better-off from certain schools or areas. If you go through the article posted by ChinaToday you will see that the results from the rural and poor parts of China were also very high and the equite between rich and poor is very high. That is the formular to build an advanced society in the long run.

Exactly. The school system has to impart certain skills into the students. Not just base it on content.

But then again, in a very flexible school system such as the west, which concentrate on skills the students want to develop you end up knowledgeable in one field but not in others. Which is also bad.

This is utter BS! School systems in the EU have very big differences from Finland down to Italy. It's also BS to claim that our schools concentrates on skills the students wants to develop since that only starts after 10 years of a broad general education where the fundamentals of all subjects should be acquired.
 
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I am not dragging the post offtopic. Am saying the kind of test PISA is, is more application oriented. Indian education is more content oriented. Concepts are constantly beat into children, without knowing why and how they are used. I am saying you need to know concepts as well as apply them. Tests like the PISA claim to test fundamentals, but like I showed an example above, they test practical application of it more.


you showed one example....which makes you use percentage calculations. Are those not fundamentals? How to calculate percents?



The relevance of my post was to convey that a skills based education system actually helps you transition into work better, but does not necessarily mean you are gonna win the nobel prize for anything (as an example). It was meant to say, that infact you need both knowledge as well as skills based education in order to be that successful.

Relevance of your post is looking for excuses, quite delicately but still....

Exactly. The school system has to impart certain skills into the students. Not just base it on content.

But then again, in a very flexible school system such as the west, which concentrate on skills the students want to develop you end up knowledgeable in one field but not in others. Which is also bad.


This idea is wrong too, in every decent school they give you basic(elementary school) and quite advanced knowledge (high school) from many areas of science, it is you the student who later decides what you wantto specialize in. And if you have the time/money/energy you can do 2 universities at the same time.

What Gotternub said....8 years elementary school, 4 years high school...teaches nothing but basics and general education.
 
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Götterdämmerung;3491204 said:
The PISA test wants to know what is the level of all students in one country, not just the better-off from certain schools or areas. If you go through the article posted by ChinaToday you will see that the results from the rural and poor parts of China were also very high and the equite between rich and poor is very high. That is the formular to build an advanced society in the long run.
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lal,i read an interview with a Shanghai proffessor, he said those scores were bought on the account of creativity, ingenuity, etc.....in other words, they were purposely creating "robots" for the test.

Thats not good in the long run. :lol:
 
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Relevance of your post is looking for excuses, quite delicately but still....

I am not looking for excuses. I am trying to say that Indians are not dumb. I am trying to say Indian students are quite good, and this PISA test does not reflect their real capabilities.

That said, what I am also trying to say is that we should review our educational system, and see where and if it lacks certain attributes, and if changes are actually necessary.

What Gotternub, fast etc are saying is that Indians are dumb. Its actually racist, but I'll leave it at that and wont dwell on such nonsense. Needless chest thumping because of some PISA score does not discount actual achievements in real life, that Indians have actually SHOWN that they can achieve. There is tons of proof for it. And because we have real life examples of success, facilitated by our education system, this result is indeed intriguing. So we have to analyze it from all angles than jump to conclusions and say , Indians are dumb. Which is nonsense.

in other words, they were purposely creating "robots" for the test.

Yeah so how is that reflective of China or its education system anyway? Its like the Olympic medals they win, they train for a particular purpose. And do it again and again and again.
 
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As far as I know, because Ive taken the GMAT, it tests high school math. And it is the standard the world over. Whether its North America, Europe or Asia all schools use those scores and the test is in the same format the world over. Chinese and Indians score the highest in these tests. Especially in Math.

The problem is, only a fraction of all students wil take GMAT or GRE, the PISA wants to know the average of the ones who will never take any of the before mentioned tests as they, too, will be part of the future workforce.

Maybe it's the caste mentality many of you guys have: Why should I care for the not so bright one, they actually don't really exist at all and hence PISA is irrelevant, only the bests who pass GMAT or GRE wil get the spotlight.
 
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I am not looking for excuses. I am trying to say that Indians are not dumb. I am trying to say Indian students are quite good, and this PISA test does not reflect their real capabilities.

I don't see people saying that Indians are dumb, all we say is that your school system sucks big time for most students and that does not serve you well in the long run. so don't even try to shove tha down my throat.


Yeah so how is that reflective of China or its education system anyway? Its like the Olympic medals they win, they train for a particular purpose. And do it again and again and again.

That's what the guy said who managed the PISA tests:

In 2010, the 2009 Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) results revealed that Shanghai students scored the highest in the world in every category (Mathematics, Reading and Science). The OECD described Shanghai as a pioneer of educational reform, noting that "there has been a sea change in pedagogy". OECD point out that they "abandoned their focus on educating a small elite, and instead worked to construct a more inclusive system. They also significantly increased teacher pay and training, reducing the emphasis on rote learning and focusing classroom activities on problem solving."[27]

OECD has also noted that even in rural China results approached average levels for the OECD countries: "Citing further, as-yet unpublished OECD research, Mr Schleicher said, 'We have actually done Pisa in 12 of the provinces in China. Even in some of the very poor areas you get performance close to the OECD average.'"[28] For a developing country, China’s 99.4% enrolment in primary education is already, as the OECD puts it, “the envy of many countries” while junior secondary school participation rates in China are now 99%. But in Shanghai not only has senior secondary school enrolment attained 98% but admissions into higher education have achieved 80% of the relevant age group. That this growth reflects quality, not just quantity, is confirmed clearly by the OECD’s ranking of Shanghai’s secondary education as world number one.[28] According to the OECD, China has also expanded school access, and moved away from learning by rote.[29] "'The last point is key: Russia performs well in rote-based assessments, but not in Pisa,' says Schleicher, head of the indicators and analysis division at the OECD’s directorate for education. 'China does well in both rote-based and broader assessments.'"[28]

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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The problem is, only a fraction of all students wil take GMAT or GRE, the PISA wants to know the average of the ones who will never take any of the before mentioned tests as they, too, will be part of the future workforce.

And only a fraction take the PISA test too. And how would anyone know if these kids will ever take the GMAT or the GRE? Thats a nonsensical extrapolation that has no basis.

Maybe it's the caste mentality many of you guys have: Why should I care for the not so bright one, they actually don't really exist at all and hence PISA is irrelevant, only the bests who pass GMAT or GRE wil get the spotlight.

That is your opinion. What ideas you have in your head about India/Indians/Our culture etc is irrelevant and does not reflect reality. There is no pass/fail on the GMAT or the GRE. If you browsed through lots of GMAT forums, you will find that a lot of Indians with low GPA's in their school and college, actually score high on the GMAT. So the PISA test is not reflective of success, intelligence etc.,

Its a test that can at the most be used to gauge the TYPE of education, and maybe to a certain extent the quality of it (however it doesnt reflect quality to the fullest extent). It doesnt say anything more than that.

all we say is that your school system sucks big time for most students

Most that have succeeded through similar school systems, me being one of them, dont think so. I think I have more credibility here having actually gone through the process. That said, I would also definitely recommend education standards to be updated as per modern times. I am not denying that.
 
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