India as a great power: Know your own strength

[Bang Galore]

"Self-Respect" is when you keep your own culture and evolve your culture under the influences of globalization..but maintain your indigenous cultural outlook (E.g, Japan, China, Islamic World, Western World, Russia etc)..

I was showing that new song (Lat lag gayi) to one of my friends here in USA and he insultingly laughed and said "Hah! india is getting too Westernized" ... Even I felt kinda mad at him from inside, even though I aint even indian...

Your fellow compatriots here feel 'proud' in telling us Pakistanis and Chinese that how indians are better at speaking English than us...and you rant here about your freedom and military spending and blah blah?

Your sovereignty won't be breached by any surrounding military...it'd be breached by Wall Mart that will kill your farmers...

'Western influence' is normal thing..as all civilizations influence each other...but gladly "accepting" western imperialism at the expense of your own culture is something unique to india...

Influence works both ways. What you see as Indian culture is not a monolith nor is it one that has always remained pure. Muslim influence on Indian culture was as much foreign at the time it crept in as western culture in it might seem to you today. Nothing is stagnant. Most of us are okay with such a change, those who aren't are at a liberty to hold on to whatever they wish. Making judgements on culture is both silly & unwise.

Walmart won't kill farmers, farmers will benefit even if the middlemen are killed off. Life moves on, we must move accordingly making necessary changes where we feel our interest is advanced by such changes, altering them where necessary. Attempting to prevent change never works, if the winds of change is persistent enough, you risking losing a lot more when it finally blows away the opposition.

 

[muse]

Wasn't talking about war, just that Indians have no real stomach for aggressive behavior(direct provocation excepted) even when warranted by national interest. India is unlikely to wage war, senseless or otherwise on its own accord.

Btw, I am not one of those who believes that India must be aggressive in dealing with the world. I'm not even one of those who believes that India must necessarily be in direct conflict with Pakistan or China. I'm simply a realist who sticks with what can be achieved rather than hold on to pipe dreams (even if it is those with a bigger vision will eventually make a breakthrough, whenever that is)

Being aggressive is not the same as being great - Being provocative, taking offense, none of these are about being great and powerful

There was a reason I had asked, in the "Usual but Necessary" to not count on Pakistan members - to Pakistani members, it is inconceivable that great would not mean aggressive, or not using military power - that society is caught up in a fantasy,a story of a culture that is not even their own, where even taking a dumb is a religious issue, where God is about fashion sense, they are a million miles away from reality - India must decide for herself, what great is to mean. We have pointed to what we think is most persuasive in the trilateral discussions, in a consciousness, that the life of consciousness must be one of dignity and ethics -- allow the borrowed Utopia Pakistani society escapes in, to wither without the sustenance of conflict, anger and the "other"

 

[AUz]

Oh please. We have managed to keep our cultural identity for the past 5000 years, despite suffering invasion after invasion. If the forced attempts of central Asians couldn't change our identity and character, you can bet that a few walmarts across India wont either. (And about the economic side of it, it is farmers who are actively lobbying FOR walmart and retail FDI, and it is traders who are arguing against it. You got that factually wrong.)

Besides, we don't have one single "culture", we have hundreds. The culture of tamils or biharis or marathas are all very very distinct from each other. All these cultures have existed long before present day European cultures began, and will probably outlast them, if history is anything to go by. Our identity (whether of the Vedic/post Vedic cultures or Dravidian and other cultures) all existed before ancient romans or greeks or Egyptians. While those civilizations all perished in the sands of time, ours has endured, despite the constant attacks from without. So I wouldn't worry much about television or walmart putting an end to five millennia of indomitable cultural endurance. Foreign influences and ideas have only enriched us, never destroyed us.

In the words of pakistan's national poet and conceptual founder, in India's most famous patriotic song (tarana-e-hind or saare jahaan se accha),

YUNAAN - O - MISR - O - ROMAA SAB MIT GAYE JAHAAn SE
AB TAK MAGAR HAI BAAQI NAAM - O - NISHAAn HAMAARAA!

KUCHH BAAT HAI KE HASTI MIT - TI NAHIEn HAMAARI
SADYOn RAHAA HAI DUSHMAN DAUR - E- ZAMAAn HAMAARAA!

(The Egyptian, roman and greek civilizations have all vanished from the earth. But our civilization's imprints endure on an on. There is something about our existence that we cannot be effaced, though the cycle of time has forever been inimical to us.)

So Indians are not worried about walmart or a new song "lat lag gayi" or whatever destroying our culture. Sorrry, but our culture is far too old, far too strong and far too proud to be erased by such trivialities.

Ok, fair enough..

I'm not opposed to change...Change is MUST in every culture.. as I said

" Self-Respect is when you keep your own culture and evolve your culture under the influences of globalization..but maintain your indigenous cultural outlook (E.g, Japan, China, Islamic World, Western World, Russia etc).."

Anyways, on topic, the article is retarded.

I don't know why indians are obsessed with hegemonic mind-set..

indian military strength is as useless as say South Africa's....indians can not deploy their military strength against Pakistan and China...and they'll face no aggression from Pakistan or China...It is a stalemate...so why brag about how big bad your military is becoming?

 

[notsuperstitious]

"Self-Respect" is when you keep your own culture and evolve your culture under the influences of globalization..but maintain your indigenous cultural outlook (E.g, Japan, China, Islamic World, Western World, Russia etc)..

Pakistan follows a western culture totally foreign to their land - Islam.

Only a fool would say Japan, Russia are not westernised, or that the popular culture in china is not a mix of western and local cultures - like India. The world islamic world is a misnomer, many muslim countries are totally westernised or follow a mix of local and popular western culture, many countries follow foreign islamic arab culture. Your argument is as spacious as can be.

 

[Icewolf]

Pakistan follows a western culture totally foreign to their land - Islam.

Only a fool would say Japan, Russia are not westernised, or that the popular culture in china is not a mix of western and local cultures - like India. The world islamic world is a misnomer, many muslim countries are totally westernised or follow a mix of local and popular western culture, many countries follow foreign islamic arab culture. Your argument is as spacious as can be.

This isn't Babur's time anymore brother

It would have been easy to convert us back during early stages of Mughal Empire

Now it is completely integrated into our society. Even our language has Islam in it.

And religions expand. Just becuase one religion expanded doesn't mean it has to be foreign to the conquered territory.

Going by your logic, all religions of the world are FOREIGN, and huamns should go back to dancing in caves and worshipping the sun, right?

 

[notsuperstitious]

This isn't Babur's time anymore brother

It would have been easy to convert us back during early stages of Mughal Empire

Now it is completely integrated into our society. Even our language has Islam in it.

And religions expand. Just becuase one religion expanded doesn't mean it has to be foreign to the conquered territory.

Going by your logic, all religions of the world are FOREIGN, and huamns should go back to dancing in caves and worshipping the sun, right?

Not at all, that is the logic put forth by your pakistani friend. I'm saying cultures take what suits them from other cultures and move on.

What is called ''western culture'' today is essentially popular post modern culture that was alien to even the west not so long ago.

Get it?

 

[Icewolf]

Not at all, that is the logic put forth by your pakistani friend. I'm saying cultures take what suits them from other cultures and move on.

What is called ''western culture'' today is essentially popular post modern culture that was alien to even the west not so long ago.

Get it?

Yeah, so then dont scream, cry, and whine at Islamic culture in Pakistan, my dear Indian?

 

[notsuperstitious]

Yeah, so then dont scream, cry, and whine at Islamic culture in Pakistan, my dear Indian?

Are you OK? I did not cry about the arab islamic culture of pakistan, your friend cried about the ''westernised'' Indian culture. I only pointed out that Pakistan follows a foreign culture and it would be hypocricy to use a different yardstick to India. Kindly do not respond if all you want to do it advertise your short attention span and general lack of logical thinking.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Military greatness at the expense of a state's own citizens doesn't bring greatness, it brings chaos. Good luck to India for becoming a "great power".

Ouch. . .

 

[Bang Galore]

Being aggressive is not the same as being great - Being provocative, taking offense, none of these are about being great and powerful

There was a reason I had asked, in the "Usual but Necessary" to not count on Pakistan members - to Pakistani members, it is inconceivable that great would not mean aggressive, or not using military power - that society is caught up in a fantasy,a story of a culture that is not even their own, where even taking a dumb is a religious issue, where God is about fashion sense, they are a million miles away from reality - India must decide for herself, what great is to mean. We have pointed to what we think is most persuasive in the trilateral discussions, in a consciousness, that the life of consciousness must be one of dignity and ethics -- allow the borrowed Utopia Pakistani society escapes in, to wither without the sustenance of conflict, anger and the "other"

You are right that India must decide for herself & I for one, hope that India decides that it is fine being a normal country, whatever that would mean in the context of India itself. These great power delusions are both pointless & out of national character. India will simply be India, sublime at times, ridiculous at others.

A standard great power delusion is permanent membership of the UN security council. What India wants to do once she gets there (other than torpedo all resolutions inimical to India) is not known. Indians have little interest in world matters, that is how it has always been for millenia. Indians cannot see in black & white, both culture & religion (majority) prevent that. Those who see things primarily in grey might provide context but are almost useless in making quick decisions. If India does get there, all she will do is abstain all the time India wants to be there simply as an acknowledgement of her status & nothing more. Not much of great power behavior, is it?

 

[janon]

Perhaps you need to rethink what Great may mean ?? -- Waging idiot senseless wars, is not what makes nations great.

Being aggressive is not the same as being great - Being provocative, taking offense, none of these are about being great and powerful

There was a reason I had asked, in the "Usual but Necessary" to not count on Pakistan members - to Pakistani members, it is inconceivable that great would not mean aggressive, or not using military power - that society is caught up in a fantasy,a story of a culture that is not even their own, where even taking a dumb is a religious issue, where God is about fashion sense, they are a million miles away from reality - India must decide for herself, what great is to mean. We have pointed to what we think is most persuasive in the trilateral discussions, in a consciousness, that the life of consciousness must be one of dignity and ethics -- allow the borrowed Utopia Pakistani society escapes in, to wither without the sustenance of conflict, anger and the "other"

That is the trouble with titles like this, that the same word ("great" in this case) means different things to different people. If the title said "strong" instead of great, then everybody can agree on what it means.

By my own yardstick, I would claim that India is already a "great" military power. Why? Not because we can project power to distant parts of the globe (we can't; sri lanka or Mauritius at most), not because we can install friendly regimes across the world (again, we can't), and not because we have a million+ army. I agree with your statement that being great does not mean being provocative or going to war at the drop of a hat.

I claim that India is a great power simply because it has the ability to defend itself against any foreign power, and despite its huge military, it has NOT gone on hegemonic wars anywhere. We have successfully put an image of being a "soft power" in the world. Now it may not satisfy some people's egos to be thought of as a soft power, but to me the image that India has as a power today is a lot better than having the image of a swaggering bully. We are far too powerful to be cowed down by any other country, and that is all that matters to me.

@Bang Galore is right when he says that most Indians are aboard on this one. (PDF is not an accurate representation of Indians' mindset in general.) Most Indians would not want the country to go on blazing military campaigns. Indians are taught to value greatness not through military accomplishments, which is why most Indians remain unaware of military matters. Even the most informed and well read intellectuals usually don't know much about defence issues.

So it really boils down to what one considers "great". And that definition is subjective.

 

[janon]

Hindustan had reached the pinnacle of its magnificence under the Mughals. Only when the Muslims are back to rule Hindustan can she hope for greatness. The Hindus are a timid people more used to commercial activities and menial functions of the society rather than ruling. They do not have the character or mental make up even to desire real greatness.

@asad71: Your country became "asad" in "71" because Indians came and rescued your sorry a$$.

I don't judge my nation's worth using delusions of martial prowess, but to hear such talk from people in Bangladesh is amusing. Your country is full of muslims, right? So what magnificence and greatness have you achieved? How come your nation still continues to perform the "menial functions"?

 

[Icewolf]

Are you OK? I did not cry about the arab islamic culture of pakistan, your friend cried about the ''westernised'' Indian culture. I only pointed out that Pakistan follows a foreign culture and it would be hypocricy to use a different yardstick to India. Kindly do not respond if all you want to do it advertise your short attention span and general lack of logical thinking.

Islam is not foreign to Pakistan...
So shut your mouth.

Hindustan had reached the pinnacle of its magnificence under the Mughals. Only when the Muslims are back to rule Hindustan can she hope for greatness. The Hindus are a timid people more used to commercial activities and menial functions of the society rather than ruling. They do not have the character or mental make up even to desire real greatness.

 

[angeldude13]

Oye tu itnay dramay kab se krnay lag para?

No one is taking over india...no one can. Even a super hyper-power like the mighty United States can not physically "take over" a country like Iran for just 20 years or so, who do you think will think of 'taking over' a mammoth country like india?

The age of global empires is over...Today, imperialism comes in different forms (Economic imperialism, cultural imperialism etc)..and india is gladly accepting the new 21st century imperialism by West (Unlike Russia, China, Islamic World , and some S.American countries!) ...So better keep your these rants to yourself and work hard to develop your country...

"Self-Respect" is when you keep your own culture and evolve your culture under the influences of globalization..but maintain your indigenous cultural outlook (E.g, Japan, China, Islamic World, Western World, Russia etc)..

I was showing that new song (Lat lag gayi) to one of my friends here in USA and he insultingly laughed and said "Hah! india is getting too Westernized" ... Even I felt kinda mad at him from inside, even though I aint even indian...

Your fellow compatriots here feel 'proud' in telling us Pakistanis and Chinese that how indians are better at speaking English than us...and you rant here about your freedom and military spending and blah blah?

Your sovereignty won't be breached by any surrounding military...it'd be breached by Wall Mart that will kill your farmers...

'Western influence' is normal thing..as all civilizations influence each other...but gladly "accepting" western imperialism at the expense of your own culture is something unique to india...

what westernization your friend was talking about???
india was the land of kamsutra and khajurao.

sari is the sexiest and most seductive dress i've ever seen.it shows all the curves of a women and don't forget the navel.
blouse which women wear was used to be like a tube top.
india is becoming india again and not some western country.

 

[Icewolf]

sari is the sexiest and most seductive dress i've ever seen.it shows all the curve of a women and don't forget the navel.
blouse which women wear was used to be like a tube top.
india is becoming india again and not some western country.

Not when you have a bush of armpit hair underneath