India and Saudi Arabia relations

[Isaq Khan]

He is rolling back the things in his own country for their own interest and exporting it through human resource and money to other nations. So he is keeping his own interest priority, damn cares where the dirt goes to and money sent. Same can be said for the other gulf nations also, they are living in heaven, while having made other places hell and sponsoring it to keep it that way.

Golden words. I agree.

 

[Isaq Khan]

I am not talking about the pie or jobs or oil or whatever.

Try to understand the point being discussed and raised.

Ur not saying but i'm. We will get huge benefits, until yesterday we got nothing.

And also for terrorism i think there will be presure and confusion in ground solders. We have to wait and watch.


Most importantly nobody can deny authority and say of Saudi Arabia in Muslim Countries and it will send a loud and clear message.

Good for us.

 

[EjazR]

what I find interesting is that the indians arent keen on solving Mumbai drama, rather they use it as a tool

did you notice that just prior to "talks about talks" the indians finally admitted that indian suspects were also to blame for the attacks? They knew about it the whole time, but they are just trying to appease Pakistan by partly assuming some responsibility for "non state actors" within its very own borders

You might nto be aware but there were local Indians arrested and being prosecuted as part of the Mumbai trials. The "new" information that you are talking about --if its about the Abu Jindal revelation--is an operative based in Pakistan who may be Indian. That doesn't change the fundamental fact that Pakistani soil is being used.

So GoI has already caught some low level Indian nationals already and have been prosecuting them along with Kasab. The other "possible" Indian nationals are in Pakistan and India gave three dossiers around that.

the case of headley is quite strange......nevertheless, Americans wont hand him over to india as the case is ongoing.

In the end, I don't see much change from this meeting. It's standard diplomatic protocol and a few pleasantries exchanged. The interests of both countries seem to diverge in many ways --apart from commerce related development. Saudis are wary of india's close ties to israel, and its support of the non-representative Northern Alliance Regime in Afghanistan --whose support is declining in the war-torn country given the rampant corruption (among other things)

David Headley is a strange case, India would be well advised to maintain a healthy dose of independent verifiable investigation rather than fully relying on Americans.

Saudi's dont support the Taliban due to their ties to AQ. Iran does not want to distinguish between Good Taliban and Bad Taliban. So India is just reiterating what the Saudis and Iranians are saying.

There may be some resentment over one Ram Jethmalani's comments against Wahhabism, which caused the Saudi Ambassador to storm out during the conference on terrorism held at Vigyan Bhavan in hindustan

Jethmalani--a maveric of sorts--did not represent GoI viewpoint. Unfortunately not many muslims even don't know what Wahabism aka Salafism is about so Jethmalani's ignorance in this matter is not surprising. Hopefully the GoI staff have a better understanding that the root cause of the problem is a political Islam ideology of establishing a so-called Islamic state and forcing so-called sharia top down (that AQ and Taliban follow) than some theological sect like Wahabism or Salafism

 

[Choppers]

Manmohan asks Saudi Arabia to persuade Pakistan to stop terror

PTI

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during their talks in Riyadh on Sunday

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Monday said he had asked Saudi Arabia to use its “good offices” to persuade Pakistan to desist from the path of terror.

Dr. Singh was asked by reporters on his way back home from Riyadh whether India would like to see Saudi Arabia as a credible interlocutor in dealing with some Indo-Pak issues, an apparent reference to remarks made by Minister of State for External Affairs Shashi Tharoor that created a flutter.

“I know Saudi Arabia has close relations with Pakistan,” Dr. Singh said, noting that he had discussed Indo-Pak relations with King Abdullah on a one-to-one basis and explained to him the role that terrorism aided, and inspired by Pakistan is playing in India.

“I did not ask him to do anything other than to use his good offices to persuade Pakistan to desist from this path,” he said.

The Hindu : News / National : Manmohan asks Saudi Arabia to persuade Pakistan to stop terror

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You might nto be aware but there were local Indians arrested and being prosecuted as part of the Mumbai trials.

I am aware, though we mostly hear about Mr. Kasab as he has become a tabloid item of sorts --along with Mr. Hafiz Saeed, whom the indians are obcessed with

The "new" information that you are talking about --if its about the Abu Jindal revelation--is an operative based in Pakistan who may be Indian.

You may need further evidence to prove that, considering even Chidambaram was very vague about it when asked by reporters

That doesn't change the fundamental fact that Pakistani soil is being used.

you have grievances as do we. india is using Afghan soil to forment trouble in Pakistan

I don't want to divert attention from the subject, but you indians ought to be more worried about the naxals. They seem to be increasing their insurgency against the state. Last week they killed over a dozen policemen

So GoI has already caught some low level Indian nationals already and have been prosecuting them along with Kasab.

yes. among those indian nationals --- Fahim Ansari. So india should first worry about the groups and individuals already present within her own borders. There seems to be several militant outfits operating in that country.

The other "possible" Indian nationals are in Pakistan and India gave three dossiers around that.

according to our F.O. spokesperson, the dossiers appear to be more literature in nature; not really evidence of any sort.

This isn't the first time either. But it seems the indians may be improving. Initially they were sending dossiers in marathi language!!

David Headley is a strange case, India would be well advised to maintain a healthy dose of independent verifiable investigation rather than fully relying on Americans.

he is in their custody, proceedings underway in their courts. india would have neglible say in the matter

Saudi's dont support the Taliban due to their ties to AQ.

somewhat vague statement. They may have ties to some prominent taleban figures, not necessarily extremist/militant types --similar to what I'm sure is the case with Pakistan.

Afghan President Karzai has even asked King Abdullah to mediate with the Taleban so they can reach a solution, as there is a lot of pressure on Karzai to have the forces withdraw and re-integrate taleban elements willing to renounce violence

(the 2 go together, I believe)

Iran does not want to distinguish between Good Taliban and Bad Taliban. So India is just reiterating what the Saudis and Iranians are saying.

due to geo-political realities and other personal reasons, Iran does not want to take part in a process that involves taleban. It won't really change much. You need to learn about Afghanistan.

The western parts which are non-Pakhtun (e.g. tajik/hazara/etc.) enjoy fair amount of patronage by Iran. It once again illustrates how Afghanistan is really just a network of different neighourhoods and turfs

obviously if Iran supported the now increasingly irrelevant Northern Alliance and other individual warlords like General (retd.) Rashid Dostum (a man with a 'flattering' human rights record); and on the other hand KSA supported taleban --then it's strange to say they have similar goals in the region.

I can assure you that all parties involved, especially Pakistan --- everyone wants to see Afghanistan stabilize --- and end to the cycle of violence and instability, not to mention rampant corruption and drugs proliferation.

The recent documentary aired by PBS was a real eye-opener. The Afghan taleban will lay down their arms once foreign forces withdraw. This has become more of a nationalist issue than a religious one; history shows us that Afghans always united when confronted by occupation.

It happened with the former USSR. It is happening again now.

Jethmalani--a maveric of sorts--did not represent GoI viewpoint. Unfortunately not many muslims even don't know what Wahabism aka Salafism is about so Jethmalani's ignorance in this matter is not surprising.

Yes, clearly he had no understanding of the issue. It appears he also has no concept of respect towards foreign dignitaries and guests. Nevertheless, it really goes down to interpretation.

Wahhabism tends to reject modern influence (we can debate what that entails). Salafism seeks to reconcile Islam with modernism. Both share a rejection of "traditional teachings" and both are more conservative --- the former being merely a 'school of thought' and/or a "culture" and the latter being a puritanical sub-sect of Sunni Islam. Wahhabism is specifically a theological sect, while the focus of Salafism was always historically confined to reinterpreting Islamic jurisprudence.

There is plenty of literature on this subject, you can go seek knowledge and learn about it.

Hopefully the GoI staff have a better understanding that the root cause of the problem is a political Islam ideology of establishing a so-called Islamic state and forcing so-called sharia top down (that AQ and Taliban follow) than some theological sect like Wahabism or Salafism

AQ's aims initially were just to drive out Americans and "Western" culture out of the Arabian Gulf. Thousands of these hardline fighters were once allies of the U.S. --funded and armed by the Reagan administration. This was also a time when oil prices were on the rise, and petro-dollars were coming in, and a lot of modernism came along within such a short period of time --in an otherwise arrid and barren region. Not to mention, U.S. was planting army bases throughout the GCC region in an effort to establish strategic depth and ward off Iraqi/Iranian/Russian designs.

It wasn't really until the disastrous invasion of Iraq when this globalist agenda really began, and AQ became a totally de-centralized "organization"

I think it is a mistake, and quite clumsy, to put taleban and AQ into one basket. We are told that AQ was responsible for 9/11. No taleban or Afghan was responsible for those terrorist attacks.

You could argue that taleban gave hospitality to AQ, but many of those fighters (Arabs/Uzbeks/etc.) had been there for decades; grew up there, married there, learned the language etc. Mullah Omar would have been better served if he listened to Pakistan/KSA and handed those fighters over, but he refused because of cultural reasons -such as the oath to protect 'guests' (at least that is my belief).


We all hope for an end to terrorism and instability in this region. Especially us in Pakistan. Believe me when I say that. Our economy has taken a bit of a beating from all of this madness. We have lost brave and valient men and women (civilians and military).

When there is total stability, we will have access to much of water-locked Central Asia; this is key to our economic growth. It is more than just about strategic depth. We see a very good future for Pakistan once there is security, and we are able to neutralize our enemies and their ulterior objectives --directly or indirectly. Despite the shortfalls, the disappointments, and being lied to --- I think Pakistanis will mature and be more equipped to demand real nationalist leaders who keep our interests at heart.



it's always best NOT to lose to terrorists....you lose when you let them control your agenda, when they have instilled so much fear into you that you don't think clearly or rationally

 

[EjazR]

^^^
The focus on Kasab is understandable as he was the on who was shooting up people. Fahim Ansari was allegedly involved in a support role. The trial is still ongoing.

About Abu Jindal, one of the alleged handlers/trainers in an earlier thread discussed about this.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/46307-abu-jindal-indian-link-26-11-identified.html
Please note that Chidambaram mentioned he may be Indian. And also that he is in Pakistan and possibly last seen in Karachi.

India needs to work massively on police reform and I have always stressed that. There is a huge problem with some sections of the lower sections of police in India being communal and not being efficient. There are plenty of cases of false arrests and encounters that happen and in all that the real culprits get away and the vulnerable population gets more radicalised.

But that still doesn't gloss over the fact that there were extensive operations run by the ISI from Kashmir to Kerala and NE India to "destabilise India" The UJC in Muzaffarabad is still functioning and Hizb, HUJI and LeT militants are regularly making their way to Kashmir. We can't have a peaceful atmosphere to resolve this issue until this happens.


About Afghanistan, what I am saying is that the AT are seen as a liability and in my view even by the top leadership in Pakistan. Its just a matter of when the cut them loose. The Iranians definitely have no love for them, neither do the CARs. The Saudi were ambivalent post 98 but post 9/11 they have been completely cut off. The Saudi mediation is to only bring in the low level Taliban affliates, the core Taliban leadership around Mulla Omar is as antagonistic to Saudis as Bin Laden.


The Saudi version of Salafism (another way of referring Wahabism) is certainly extremely conservative and literal at times. It also rejects tasawwuf or sufism and the spiritual aspects of Islam that is quite integral in many ways. But its in no way an ideology that endorses terrorism or killing of innocent people.

This is an AQ mindset so to speak or more specifically another perverting strain of political Islam. Bin Laden has mentioned that his ultimate aim and Taliban is similar. The only difference is Taliban are focused within Afghanistan while Bin Laden has a global agenda. Still both are committing grave wrongs in the name of Islam.

The biggest problem for me is with this political Islam ideology-- first propounded by Maududi and Syed Qutb --that is against traditional Islamic teachings. Not with Uzbeks or 9/11 or Iraq as these are only symptoms of problems. Along with fighting these hardcore militants militarily. The ideology should be fought as well.

And not with these muddle headed conferences on sufism and Urs. The ideology to defeat in the light of Quran and Sunnah is the political Islam ideology that has been already in the works for many years. Its only a point of picking up these works and highlighting them among Muslims. The AQ type groups represent a miniscule subset of the politcal Islam stream that has mutated and perverted in unusual ways to end with justifying violence against innocents. But the types of Hizb-ut-Tahrir e.t.c. should also be confronted.

I have discussed this here on another thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...wered-questions-case-pakistan.html#post550583

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

Pakistan Foreign should be policy:
1. If India goes to Saudi Arab , Pakistan should go to Iran and vice versa.
2. If India goes to USA , Pakistan should to Russia (apologies for the past) and vice versa.
3. If India goes to other Arabs , Pakistan should go to Israel and vice versa.
else India will isolate Pakistan for good.

r u nuts probably i think u should retire

 

[Peace Sells no one buying]

I think that a number of people here *may* need to take a step away from the computer for a while, have some cool water, hug their loved ones, enjoy a good meal -- and then come back into this discussion. The reactionary statements made here would not exist if cooler heads were involved. I'm not naming names, or trying to elevate my position here -- I lose my mind at times too.

Today the world is not so small as just the nations your nation borders, and the nations those nations border. It's in the best interest of all nations to at least keep diplomatic ties with as many nations as strategically possible.

The people that currently inhabit the nations of India and Pakistan have had, in years past, diplomatic, trade and cultural exchange with the people who lived in the current day Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi (and other gulf states) to the west, and to the people who now live in Burma, Thailand, China to the east. Why should this change just because there are lines drawn on the map? (the lines don't actually exist on the surface of the Earth, remember?)

Being selfish and over-protective of what nations get to be on good terms with your 'allies' does not get anyone anywhere. Think of it as children in a classroom -- why should the child be jealous of another classmate wants to get to talk with and get to know their best friend? Silly.

Posters here have pointed out that Saudi is no real friend -- if that's the case, then people shouldn't be worried about this; it may just be business.

Others have suggested that India has a responsibility to the Muslims that live within her borders -- and keeping good relations with Saudi is important if India wishes to be fair and seriously concerned with the wishes of her Muslim population.

Still, others wish to bring up near recent history and events of the previous millennium. If we're going to go back in the time machine and see how diplomacy should be carried out than we need to see that South Asia has been a major trade region of the ancient world, and through peace and discussion every major religion has found a home here. Why should it be any different today -- just because it's all split up into a number of nations?

 

[NSG_BlackCats]

Video on Pakistan's Policy makers and former diplomat's view on effect of India- SA relationship on Pakistan

Policy Matters | Naseem Zehra - March 01 2010 Talk Show @ Pakistan Herald

 

[ADT]

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[sivadreams]

Video on Pakistan's Policy makers and former diplomat's view on effect of India- SA relationship on Pakistan

Policy Matters | Naseem Zehra - March 01 2010 Talk Show @ Pakistan Herald

Looks like there will be an uproar Pak parliament. and I like the ending words of the Ex Ambassador that Pakistan should look for diplomacy as against extremism in terms of Kashmir.

 

[fawwaxs]

Saudi-Indian relations: Analysis

The Bharati (aka Indian) press is full of sound and fury about the trip of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the King of Sadui Arabia. The trip itself was a major achievement for the Bharati government–a clear indication of the level of relations between Delhi and Riyadh. Only four previous prime ministers have ever been allowed to the sacred land. Of course Mr. Manmohan Singh visited Riyadh only, not being allowed to stepon sacred soil of Mecca or Madina.

Bharati leaders were overjoyed by the fact that a Bharati Prime Minister was able to reach the shores of the Arabian peninsula which seems to be a major feat for the Bharati government.

The Bharati media is also very excited by the fact that Saudi Arabia has agreed to sell oil to Delhi at market prices. Well duh! Saudi Arabia surely doesn’t want to keep its oil under the sands. It does want to sell it so that it can sustain the lifestyle it is used to.

Delhi politicians are always very excited when a country decides to sell them something–anything. Delhi is “ga ga” over the fact that their trade with China has reached a certain number. Looking at the details of the numbers, one sees a one sided trade, where China is flooding the Bharati market with cheap goods–and Bharat is not exporting much. Delhi is all smiles because the US decided to sell it obsolete Nuclear power plants which are banned in the US.

Delhi and Riyadh have also signed an extradition and prisoner exchange treaty. It is amazing that Delhi was unable to get an extradition treaty signed with Saudi Arabia for the past sixty years. In practical terms an extradition treaty is not worth the paper it is written on. If the Saudi or the Bharati government deem it important for their national security purposes, they will not send a person to the other country—extradition treaty or no extradition treaty. Therefore if this is a great success story for Mr. Manmohan Singh–then one can surely imagine the level of expectations from the trip.

There are no other tangible results from the trip, other than the fact that Bharat has now introduced Saudi Arabia as an interlocutor between Pakistan and Bharat. A few weeks ago, Delhi was up in arms where the suggestion had been made that China would smooth out relations with Delhi. This week, Bharat accepted the good offices of Riyadh to smooth over ties with Pakistan. The opposition in Lok and Rjha Sabah are waiting for the Bharati PM to return so that they can hammer him. The opposition wants to know why Delhi had accepted a mediation role of Saudi Arabia in the dispute between Pakistan and Bharat.

This mediation role can only be applied to Afghanistan and to Kashmir. In both cases Delhi had rejected a third party role. This is the first time that Bharat has accepted an “interlocutory role” for a third country. Mediation by Saudi Arabia cannot be good news for Delhi. Saudi Arabia has often been accused of supporting and arming the Taliban and the militants fighting for their freedom in Kashmir.

The relations between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are legendary. Nothing could be closer. Every Pakistani head of state visits China or Saudi Arabia right after taking office. The Saudis are involved in every aspect of Pakistan life. Saudi Arabia is a major investor in Pakistan and has provided funding for Pakistan’s Nuclear program. According to sources, Pakistan Armed forces have bases in Saudi Arabia and Islamabad has provided the kingdom a nuclear umbrella. Saudi princes have been allowed into top secret nuclear facilities where even Pakistani Prime Ministers have on occasion been denied access. Thousands of Saudis live in Pakistan and many many thousands have their second homes in almost every major city of Pakistan. Thousands of Saudi students are enrolled in Pakistani universities. Millions of Pakistanis live and work in Saudi Arabia and are students in Saudi institutions. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan cooperate on each and every matter, be it foreign relations or economics or global strategies. There is no bone of contention between the two countries.

The Bharati trip came in the background of souring Bharati relations with Iran. After Delhi stabbed Iran in the back at the IAEA, Tehran canceled a $6 billion LNG deal with Delhi and has refused to revive it. Bharat is thirty for oil and gas. It cannot join the Iran Pakistan pipeline because of US pressure. It does not have oil. It needs energy. Therefore the trip to Saudi Arabia was essential to ensure supply of oil to Bharat. Saudi Arabia also seeks leverage in Delhi to pressure it to treat the large Muslim population properly.

 

[EjazR]

^^Please check what interlocutor means in the dictionary and its not a synonym for mediator.

Please read:
The Hindu : Front Page : Latest Tharoor controversy is storm in v-cup

Hope the Indian opposition reads it too.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

Saudi-Indian relations: Analysis

The Bharati (aka Indian) press is full of sound and fury about the trip of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the King of Sadui Arabia. The trip itself was a major achievement for the Bharati government–a clear indication of the level of relations between Delhi and Riyadh. Only four previous prime ministers have ever been allowed to the sacred land. Of course Mr. Manmohan Singh visited Riyadh only, not being allowed to stepon sacred soil of Mecca or Madina.

Bharati leaders were overjoyed by the fact that a Bharati Prime Minister was able to reach the shores of the Arabian peninsula which seems to be a major feat for the Bharati government.

The Bharati media is also very excited by the fact that Saudi Arabia has agreed to sell oil to Delhi at market prices. Well duh! Saudi Arabia surely doesn’t want to keep its oil under the sands. It does want to sell it so that it can sustain the lifestyle it is used to.

Delhi politicians are always very excited when a country decides to sell them something–anything. Delhi is “ga ga” over the fact that their trade with China has reached a certain number. Looking at the details of the numbers, one sees a one sided trade, where China is flooding the Bharati market with cheap goods–and Bharat is not exporting much. Delhi is all smiles because the US decided to sell it obsolete Nuclear power plants which are banned in the US.

Delhi and Riyadh have also signed an extradition and prisoner exchange treaty. It is amazing that Delhi was unable to get an extradition treaty signed with Saudi Arabia for the past sixty years. In practical terms an extradition treaty is not worth the paper it is written on. If the Saudi or the Bharati government deem it important for their national security purposes, they will not send a person to the other country—extradition treaty or no extradition treaty. Therefore if this is a great success story for Mr. Manmohan Singh–then one can surely imagine the level of expectations from the trip.

There are no other tangible results from the trip, other than the fact that Bharat has now introduced Saudi Arabia as an interlocutor between Pakistan and Bharat. A few weeks ago, Delhi was up in arms where the suggestion had been made that China would smooth out relations with Delhi. This week, Bharat accepted the good offices of Riyadh to smooth over ties with Pakistan. The opposition in Lok and Rjha Sabah are waiting for the Bharati PM to return so that they can hammer him. The opposition wants to know why Delhi had accepted a mediation role of Saudi Arabia in the dispute between Pakistan and Bharat.

This mediation role can only be applied to Afghanistan and to Kashmir. In both cases Delhi had rejected a third party role. This is the first time that Bharat has accepted an “interlocutory role” for a third country. Mediation by Saudi Arabia cannot be good news for Delhi. Saudi Arabia has often been accused of supporting and arming the Taliban and the militants fighting for their freedom in Kashmir.

The relations between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are legendary. Nothing could be closer. Every Pakistani head of state visits China or Saudi Arabia right after taking office. The Saudis are involved in every aspect of Pakistan life. Saudi Arabia is a major investor in Pakistan and has provided funding for Pakistan’s Nuclear program. According to sources, Pakistan Armed forces have bases in Saudi Arabia and Islamabad has provided the kingdom a nuclear umbrella. Saudi princes have been allowed into top secret nuclear facilities where even Pakistani Prime Ministers have on occasion been denied access. Thousands of Saudis live in Pakistan and many many thousands have their second homes in almost every major city of Pakistan. Thousands of Saudi students are enrolled in Pakistani universities. Millions of Pakistanis live and work in Saudi Arabia and are students in Saudi institutions. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan cooperate on each and every matter, be it foreign relations or economics or global strategies. There is no bone of contention between the two countries.

The Bharati trip came in the background of souring Bharati relations with Iran. After Delhi stabbed Iran in the back at the IAEA, Tehran canceled a $6 billion LNG deal with Delhi and has refused to revive it. Bharat is thirty for oil and gas. It cannot join the Iran Pakistan pipeline because of US pressure. It does not have oil. It needs energy. Therefore the trip to Saudi Arabia was essential to ensure supply of oil to Bharat. Saudi Arabia also seeks leverage in Delhi to pressure it to treat the large Muslim population properly.

I'm not responsible for what people think about me. But I'm responsible for what i give them to think about me.
fawwazs.blogspot.com - I LAUGH AT YOUR QUOTE - - - HAHAHAHAH

 

[ADT]

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