India and Russia going to sign biggest-ever defence deal worth $ 35 billion

[arp2041]

sir, its good to know that we have such a highly maneuverable 5th gen stealth aircraft, PAK FA. but if we have a look on the different news we got since last year, like one as below then its simply means that if US's F35/JSF get caught with 4++ aircrafts like SU35bm/SU30mki, F15, Rafale then it would simply try to run if it can, as no way it may win in dog fight with these 4++ aircrafts, as per these news. and australian defense experts even find it no way to be able to face the "High End Threat" like 4++ aircrafts who themselves are 'semi stealth' capable, hence they do have a good chance to get close to a 5th gen aircraft to bring it in the position to dog fight, for what F35/JSF is just not capable enough in its current state , as per these news we have, which has extended its IOC to now 2018, if no later than this. while it has so many prototypes that it would be either on induction or it would be rejected by US. as, if they find it a failed project then there is no meaning to waste time on it. but yes, as US, China, Russia+India all are working on this 5th gen concept then its too early to say it a failed project/concept. while Indian Think Tank/technical experts are even willing to sign PAK FA/FGFA for $35bil so obviously they have the certain reasons

my posts are based on logical arguments in the light of best available information

nice analysis of F-35 mate, hats of to IAF & MOD for not giving in to the temptation of F-35's offered by US, if the aircraft will get sky worthy only around 2018, than there is no sense of buying such an aircraft (since IAF wants to currently increase the nos.), i'll prefer Rafale anytime( even if some argue that it is highly costly). Apart from this it is good to note that we are working on a highly capable 5th gen fighter with the Russians, since they can give us every tech. which we want + they don't have prob. if we add foreign systems to it (like su-30mki), so i guess investment of $35 billion is worth it

 

[Gessler]

Given the fact this fighter is atleast 15 years away from induction and deployment on the front lines against Pakistan.

15 years? Who told you this?

The PAKFA will be inducted into RuAF by 2015 and that's when full scale production of the fighter will start at KnAAPO. The Indian version will be unveiled a year earlier, in 2014. Now look the Russian version first flew in 2010, 5 years later the fighter would be in production. FGFA would be unveiled in 2014, debut flight would be within 12 months thereafter, so 2015 will be the debut flight time. Keep in mind that its going to take much less time to put FGFA into production becoz much of the aircraft's technologies would have already been tested aboard the Russian PAK-FA and certified for use. The Indian version too will be a single-seat fighter as now confirmed, so airframe changes are extremely minimal concerning crew seating which is crucial change.

If it takes 5 years for PAKFA with all-new tech to go into production, it would take lesser time for FGFA with already tested tech to be put into fullscale production, lets say 4 years. So by 2018 this FGFA would have not only been inducted but also have entered mass production at HAL Ozar.

Yours 15 years estimate is pathetic. This isn't any all-new plane to be developed. Its only an advanced version of a plane that's already flying there at Komsomolsk-on-Amur!

Furthermore, you are acting as if PAF was in neck-to-neck competition with IAF as far as aircraft inductions go, by 2015, we'll be flying around the advanced Supersukhoi MKI will uprated engines, improved IRST, EW suites, AESA radar, RAM coating, and brand-new cockpit avionics and mission computers...that's enough to keep F-16/FC-20 at bay for the next 25 years.

In addition there is the Rafale baby that's blushing with power all over it, you should learn about the capabilities of its RBE2 AESA radar, SPECTRA EW suite, Thales FSO, and other advanced tech from Damocles and Sagem. SPECTRA is the world's most capable EW suite currently operational, on par with the F-22 Raptor's AN/ALR-94 system. It can conduct SEAD/DEAD ops against all sorts of SAM missiles, including S-400 and Spada-2000.

Its futile to aim for countering FGFA when you haven't gotten an effective answer for either Supersukhoi or Raffy first. Try to neutralise the 4.5 gen threat and then think of 5th gen threat. Furthermore it's likely that IAF's first squadrons of FGFA will be deployed in NE bases against PLAAF, but nothing for PAF to celebrate about becoz SS-MKI and Rafale are both chimeras enough for your military for decades to come.

Pakistan should work with China on coming up with a S-400 or S-500 version of aerial defense to neutralize this dangerous threat.

Just SAMs cannot get you victory in a war, especially not if you share your land border with your war opponent. SAMs are subject to EW jamming and as well as cruise missile attacks, I doubt china can make radars capable of resisting jammers of Israeli, French & Russian origin.

You need an effective air superiority plane that can defeat SS-MKI, Rafale, and FGFA. But argueably, there's no such fighter in the world, not even F-22 can tackle this fearsome combo at all.

As Indian arrogance grows, its only a matter of time, that they might try to emulate US into launching attacks in Pakistan over suspected militant camps.

Correction...US is already launching attacks on militant camps, regardless of whether India is emulating them or not.

 

[vK_man]

This is good news.But why is India and other nations spending on military like there is no tomorrow?
Is WW3 coming in a matter of years?

 

[illusion8]

This is good news.But why is India and other nations spending on military like there is no tomorrow?
Is WW3 coming in a matter of years?

Armed forces Modernization drive which was long overdue, keeping abreast with the times, Understanding of long term threat perspective to the country, options available etc..

 

[Holmes]

This is good news.But why is India and other nations spending on military like there is no tomorrow?

Comparatively, the current militiary budget wont be enough for our future needs..

 

[arp2041]

This is good news.But why is India and other nations spending on military like there is no tomorrow?
Is WW3 coming in a matter of years?

I can just say this mate - Welcome to Pakistan Defence Forum

 

[Nishan_101]

Will the SU 50 Firefox evolve into any one of these? the designs are smoking hot!! these are from Sukhoi's design desk.

Such designs shows that still Russians have great punch in their industry.

 

[The_magnificent]

Actually.

Given the fact this fighter is atleast 15 years away from induction and deployment on the front lines against Pakistan.

Pakistan should work with China on coming up with a S-400 or S-500 version of aerial defense to neutralize this dangerous threat.

As Indian arrogance grows, its only a matter of time, that they might try to emulate US into launching attacks in Pakistan over suspected militant camps.

Sorry dear friend but why pakistaniz always try to manipulate things to suit thm best ? As we both know pak Fa have 3 prototypes flying and FGFA have to be based on it, Work on it is going on, and experts saying 1st prototype is to roll out in 2014.

But u need to ease your insecurity by saying " NO IT CANNOT COME BEFORE 2028" . May i know how u got enlighten about this time frame ?

About getting SAMs from China, You guys are most welcome to make your defence preparedness. Good luck with it. It seems to be a good option for u guys.

About Indian arrogance and when they will try to emulate us to launch attacks on Pak, I feel nothing Pakistan can do to stop USA. please let me know What exectly pakistan will do if USA carry out OBL like raids, Or atacks Terror camps with drones.

N have some shame man. Why so insecure about attacks on terror camps ? Sir ji koi dili rishta hai ? Pakistan already have a bigger threat from terror camps, This dirty game pakistan should never play Which owns her a title of " terror hub " in the world.

 

[sancho]

I would like to share the information we had till now, that is, 5th gen concept isn't as successful in dog fights/other capabilities etc similar to 4++ aircrafts. it is very useful where the stealth tech is key for a mission but if it may get caught with a true 4++ aircraft like SU35/SU30mki, Rafale, F15 etc in the middle then chance are less that any of this 5th gen may either move forward or even turn back also, whether its F35/F22/Pak FA/FGFA/J20

That's not correct for many reasons. First of all, dogfights are not that important for 5th gen fighters, as it was for 3.5 to 4th gen fighters. In the past you needed a maneuverable fighter to get into position for a close combat kill, today you can launch a missile from any direction because of the improved avionics and guidance capabilities of fighters and the super maneuverability of latest gen missiles. That's the reason why the US keep adding weight on good A2A fighters like the F15 or F16 and make them less maneuverable, or why they are more than ok with fighter bombers like the F18 or F35.
Purely by flight performance the F35 is far inferior compared to the F16s it replaces, but with less drag of carrying missiles and fuel externally, AIM 9X and latest avionics, it simply don't have to be as maneuverable anymore to get the kill.
5th gen fighters like the F22 or Pak Fa on the otherside are designed to be highly maneuverable in dogfights too and they are superior to most 4th gen fighters, just like they are in BVR combats, but you simply don't need such advanced fighters against any enemy or for any role. Stealth aircrafts are basically needed only in the initial stages of war, for pre-emptive strikes and air superiority, while any later CAS or CAP can be done by any normal 4th gen fighter in a similar effective, but way more cost-effective way.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

That's not correct for many reasons. First of all, dogfights are not that important for 5th gen fighters, as it was for 3.5 to 4th gen fighters. In the past you needed a maneuverable fighter to get into position for a close combat kill, today you can launch a missile from any direction because of the improved avionics and guidance capabilities of fighters and the super maneuverability of latest gen missiles. That's the reason why the US keep adding weight on good A2A fighters like the F15 or F16 and make them less maneuverable, or why they are more than ok with fighter bombers like the F18 or F35.
Purely by flight performance the F35 is far inferior compared to the F16s it replaces, but with less drag of carrying missiles and fuel externally, AIM 9X and latest avionics, it simply don't have to be as maneuverable anymore to get the kill.
5th gen fighters like the F22 or Pak Fa on the otherside are designed to be highly maneuverable in dogfights too and they are superior to most 4th gen fighters, just like they are in BVR combats, but you simply don't need such advanced fighters against any enemy or for any role. Stealth aircrafts are basically needed only in the initial stages of war, for pre-emptive strikes and air superiority, while any later CAS or CAP can be done by any normal 4th gen fighter in a similar effective, but way more cost-effective way.

are you aware of any kind of spectra kind passive system on FGFA which can be used to guide a bvr missile ?

and why are we going for smaller FGFA rather than original PAKFA ? won't that make it similar to AMCA ?

 

[sancho]

are you aware of any kind of spectra kind passive system on FGFA which can be used to guide a bvr missile ?

and why are we going for smaller FGFA rather than original PAKFA ? won't that make it similar to AMCA ?

Can't tell you if it will have the same capabilities of SPECTRA, since we don't know much about FGFA so far, but it was often stated by Indian officials that it will have avionics with 360° detection capabilities. With IAFs experience and preference for Rafale, I would expected nothing less than SPECTRA in FGFA. Passive detection and weapon guidance is the most important capability for modern fighters and it's even more important for 5th gen fighters!
The reports about a smaller FGFA are not reliable, India initially don't wanted a heavy class fighter development, but the Russians insisted and we agreed later. FGFA and the current AMCA are already very similar, so a medium class FGFA is of course not what we will go for if AMCA will come too.

 

[Contrarian]

For all practical purposes, i doubt the T-50 will show the same level of stealth that F-35 has, let alone F-22.

 

[Bhai Zakir]

Actually.

Given the fact this fighter is atleast 15 years away from induction and deployment on the front lines against Pakistan.

Pakistan should work with China on coming up with a S-400 or S-500 version of aerial defense to neutralize this dangerous threat.

As Indian arrogance grows, its only a matter of time, that they might try to emulate US into launching attacks in Pakistan over suspected militant camps.

Are u saying that your hope lies on the chiese efforts of copying/stealing and building something like the Russians systems s400 and s500? Which Russia developed decade ago.

 

[Screambowl]

From 2022 onward??? I thought from 2020 atleast!

the more it get delayed the more foreign trips.

For all practical purposes, i doubt the T-50 will show the same level of stealth that F-35 has, let alone F-22.

i agree to that.

 

[sancho]

For all practical purposes, i doubt the T-50 will show the same level of stealth that F-35 has, let alone F-22.

That depends on the futher development of the air intake / engine section, the rest is pretty good so far, but I hope for shapped IRST and MAWS covers and not just for special paints. The biggest advantage is it's flat design, compare the recent pics alongside the Mig 29.