India and Russia going to sign biggest-ever defence deal worth $ 35 billion

[Contrarian]

I did, but such structural changes - of engine & intake - are highly unlikely now. They have produced the third prototype and in the time frame that they are talking about, rather impossible.

 

[Bhairava]

Well the Russians have still not shared the seeker and ramjet tech for Brahmos. Just saying

 

[surya kiran]

Well the Russians have still not shared the seeker and ramjet tech for Brahmos. Just saying

Agni V seekers would have been from Russia. Impossible to have anything in that range with the seeker tech we had.

 

[sancho]

I did, but such structural changes - of engine & intake - are highly unlikely now. They have produced the third prototype and in the time frame that they are talking about, rather impossible.

I wouldn't say it's impossible now. The key is only, what kind of system they finally will use to block the radar waves from the engine compressors. Integrating new, shapped engine coverings is not a big issue, nor to design 2D TVNs which are less complicated than the 3D versions Mig 35 and Su 35 has. I could even think about a higher placing of the engine front, similar to YF 23, combined with the low air intake, it would form an S as well, it is actually the design similarity to the YF 23 that makes me think that it has good potential in the stealth field.

Btw, if the latest reports about FGFA prototypes from 2014 onwards are true, it's even more realistic than before and might confirm what I expected for a long time.
We might see a Pak Fa MK1 if you want, pretty much like the current prototypes, with IRST and other sensors, as well as the engines mainly taken from Su 35 (which Russia procures in low numbers only and that nobody else seems to want). So developing the basic stealth airframe as well as the new AESA will be the biggest new developments. It shares parts with the Su 35 and 34, which makes it more cost-effective for Russia (possibly Brazilian air force too, Russia is offering the same combo) and might be more stealthy than an F15 Silent Eagle, but less than an F22.

If FGFA was just a twin seat version of the current prototype, we could have the first version way earlier and wouldn't need 3 different prototypes as well, same goes for the huge difference between induction of Pak Fa into RuAF and FGFA into IAF.
My guess was and is, that FGFA and Pak Fa Mk2 will be fully 5th gen fighters, including more stealthier airframe and sensors, a completely new developed engine and the usual customisation for Indian fighters. That will bring it ahead of at least F35 in all 5th gen fields.

 

[illusion8]

I wouldn't say it's impossible now. The key is only, what kind of system they finally will use to block the radar waves from the engine compressors. Integrating new, shapped engine coverings is not a big issue, nor to design 2D TVNs which are less complicated than the 3D versions Mig 35 and Su 35 has. I could even think about a higher placing of the engine front, similar to YF 23, combined with the low air intake, it would form an S as well, it is actually the design similarity to the YF 23 that makes me think that it has good potential in the stealth field.

Btw, if the latest reports about FGFA prototypes from 2014 onwards are true, it's even more realistic than before and might confirm what I expected for a long time.
We might see a Pak Fa MK1 if you want, pretty much like the current prototypes, with IRST and other sensors, as well as the engines mainly taken from Su 35 (which Russia procures in low numbers only and that nobody else seems to want). So developing the basic stealth airframe as well as the new AESA will be the biggest new developments. It shares parts with the Su 35 and 34, which makes it more cost-effective for Russia (possibly Brazilian air force too, Russia is offering the same combo) and might be more stealthy than an F15 Silent Eagle, but less than an F22.

If FGFA was just a twin seat version of the current prototype, we could have the first version way earlier and wouldn't need 3 different prototypes as well, same goes for the huge difference between induction of Pak Fa into RuAF and FGFA into IAF.
My guess was and is, that FGFA and Pak Fa Mk2 will be fully 5th gen fighters, including more stealthier airframe and sensors, a completely new developed engine and the usual customisation for Indian fighters. That will bring it ahead of at least F35 in all 5th gen fields.

Sancho, a layman question, I do think that the SU-50 in the current physical form will not be the end product, I see a considerable change in the outer form of the final product - am I right?

 

[sancho]

Sancho, a layman question, I do think that the SU-50 in the current physical form will not be the end product, I see a considerable change in the outer form of the final product - am I right?

At least that's what I hope and that some official statements hints, but it's important to understand that there is not much that really needs to be redesigned with stealth shapings. The general shapping of Pak Fa is not different from other stealth fighters, it is only the air intake and engine parts that differs, but we will have to wait and see what the Russians have in mind for that area and what we have in mind with FGFA.

 

[faithfulguy]

Agni V seekers would have been from Russia. Impossible to have anything in that range with the seeker tech we had.

Of course, Indian ballistic missile have the most advance seekers. That is because other countries has no seekers on a fire and forget ballistic missile.

Well the Russians have still not shared the seeker and ramjet tech for Brahmos. Just saying

I thought Russia already has shared all the necessary technology to build a Brahmos with India? Are you saying that if Russia one day says no more Brahmos for India, India would not be able to manufacture even a single Brahmos? Why are all those bragging then?

 

[illusion8]

Of course, Indian ballistic missile have the most advance seekers. That is because other countries has no seekers on a fire and forget ballistic missile.



I thought Russia already has shared all the necessary technology to build a Brahmos with India? Are you saying that if Russia one day says no more Brahmos for India, India would not be able to manufacture even a single Brahmos? Why are all those bragging then?

First off this topic is not about Brahmos, check out this link to know that it's a JV and if any partner moves away from it - either they wrap up the operations or one partner takes over the operations - nothing like that is on the cards so no point discussing about it.

Joint Venture - BrahMos.com

 

[Tshering22]

I would like to share the information we had till now, that is, 5th gen concept isn't as successful in dog fights/other capabilities etc similar to 4++ aircrafts. it is very useful where the stealth tech is key for a mission but if it may get caught with a true 4++ aircraft like SU35/SU30mki, Rafale, F15 etc in the middle then chance are less that any of this 5th gen may either move forward or even turn back also, whether its F35/F22/Pak FA/FGFA/J20 ...... no wonder US has closed production line of F22 as they have got it in enough number, around 180, for the special missions where stealth tech will be the key but their main strength is still F15, F16s, SH etc.......

hence, if you are in hurry then you may have 20+ Pak FA by even 2014, like how Russia has planned. and if little cautious then wait till 2017/18, and if you want to get the most improved version of PAk FA/FGFA then wait till at least 2022 when its production line will get matured, with fixing every possible concern, to reach the 'Fitness Landscape' of this project like how HAL has planned, as it looks like. also, this way you may have little time to see how US's professionals go with F35 about which we are getting news that they are now going back to the design stage to fix the problems they have on the final stage while they already have over 20 prototypes. as, anyhow 5th gen stealth aircraft is a concept originated in US and if they can't make a true stealth aircraft which may perform good dog fight/have other capabilities like 4th gen, then you would think that Russia+India and China both would also have the same concerns as US will have with F35/JSF......

all these arguments are based in the light of the best available information only and we must wait for next 3-4 years to see how professionals working on these projects in US/Russia/China are ended up.......

That is exactly why I said that it is okay that we are getting it in the next decade beginning.

Usually the delays in Indian defence acquisitions is not because of a partner country but because of shoddy and poor defense planning by the government authorities here.

 

[trinity]

That is exactly why I said that it is okay that we are getting it in the next decade beginning.

Usually the delays in Indian defence acquisitions is not because of a partner country but because of shoddy and poor defense planning by the government authorities here.

Tshering can you read my post about illegals in India Defence

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Did it materialize or another Indian supa pawa wet dream?

 

[Imran Khan]

3500$ deal ?

 

[Storm Force]

Did it materialize or another Indian supa pawa wet dream?

NO .......... You clearly have not followed this closely OR as typical of a green eyed Pakistani you decide to make your own agenda

This is NOT HAPPENING ..........because INDIA has rejected FGFA PROGRAMME

deemed not good enough in key paremters for Indian Air Force Needs

INDIA WALKED and DITCHED PAK FA

We want better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[he-man]

NO .......... You clearly have not followed this closely OR as typical of a green eyed Pakistani you decide to make your own agenda

This is NOT HAPPENING ..........because INDIA has rejected FGFA PROGRAMME

deemed not good enough in key paremters for Indian Air Force Needs

INDIA WALKED and DITCHED PAK FA

We want better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We wont get anything better and ultimately buy su-57 off the shelf with tot like mki.
We cant afford the F-35 for sure and i doubt it would even be offered.

That leaves us with just AMCA and su-57.
HAL dosent possess the capability of a 5 th generation aircraft and it would take considerable investment and at least a decade even if they start now.So this is also a dream more than reality.HAL needs to focus on just mk1 and mk1a.

The latest news says they have redesigned the mk2 now and it will have 85% more payload capacity and what not.These guys need to just complete whats at hand and not delve too much into future.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

NO .......... You clearly have not followed this closely OR as typical of a green eyed Pakistani you decide to make your own agenda

This is NOT HAPPENING ..........because INDIA has rejected FGFA PROGRAMME

deemed not good enough in key paremters for Indian Air Force Needs

INDIA WALKED and DITCHED PAK FA

We want better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so in short it was another of a wet dream by Supa pawa 2012
you want better than Russians go for 10000 year old Vedic Teja