India and NSG-News, Updates and Discussions.

[kasper95]

Its not just chine its the rest of 16 countries out of 48 who opposed Indians application for nsg membership.

Modi needs to look beyond just Pyar ki Jhappi diplomacy.
China playing its cards very well and ruthlessly.

if 16 countries where opposing India ,China would not have come in the open and opposed Indian membership. the reason it had to come in the open and it because others where OK with Indian membership. this was the first time china was made to show its cards and come in the open opposing India. in fact US played well. if US wanted it,they would have convinced Chinese like in 2008.
they just wanted China to stand alone opposing India,now they have India and China on the opposite sides of the table than both countries sitting together on the same side facing US. that's what is called diplomacy .US is way ahead of it than China or India .

don't get carried away. if China had support they would have stayed low and used the other country to block Indian membership, as one no vote was enough.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Like I said, I don't care.

Pay up, or not. Both outcomes are basically irrelevant to me.

I don't like to predict the future because the future always changes (like India still joining our SCO project even after the veto). Something Indian members need to learn.

money talks. mou's are worthless untill theres money switching hands and the contract is in force. china will contain india and pakistan will continue to harass them. india tried to make ties in the middel east with pro pakistani countries but it wore of quiet quickly tbh. india need to give china huge incentives to make them change their minds or atleast make them being softer. but at the same time not to anoy their little bro pakistan.
now the chinese dont care they will stop indias nsg application unless pakistan gets a membership too both on the same equal terms.
the chinese have nothing to lose.at the end of the day they are keeping pakistan happy and are selling reactors to them with no problem. and are preventing india from joining at the same time. they can call it what they want. revenge for siding with the usa/japan or their border disputes. as the chinese say its a win win.

 

[MilSpec]

Like I said, who cares if India gets NSG membership or not, .

Apparently you do, quite evident from all the huffing and puffing on these threads... :0

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Apparently you do, quite evident from all the huffing and puffing on these threads... :0

I don't care at all. They already have the waiver so what is the difference?

I do think the amount of arrogance on display is hilarious though. They need to learn not to count their chickens before they have hatched.

 

[Dungeness]

Great victory for China! Congrats...and I do commend the NPT stand that China took especially after this....

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...like-pakistan-north-korea-build-nuclear-bombs

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/

http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/pakistan/nuclear/

I don't think China take this as a victory at all. It was just the matter of principle. China simply did not see the reason and merit to bend the rules for India only. What India is expecting was an exception to the rules, from which China doesn't benefit, besides China was considered an enemy to be nuked by your countrymen.

Why would Indians even be surprised and hurt? It maybe due to India's own peculiar sense of entitlement?

 

[kasper95]

I don't think China take this as a victory at all. It was just the matter of principle. China simply did not see the reason and merit to bend the rules for India only. What India is expecting was an exception to the rules, from which China doesn't benefit, besides China was considered enemy by your countrymen. Why would Indians even be surprised and hurt?

some Indians might be surprised but India knew what was to come ,that's why minister had stated long before the NSG meet,that India is hopeful to join NSG by december.
about enmity ,you too would consider us enemies is we has supplied nuclear and missile tech to Vietnam for decades.

 

[Dungeness]

some Indians might be surprised but India knew what was to come ,that's why minister had stated long before the NSG meet,that India is hopeful to join NSG by december.
about enmity ,you too would consider us enemies is we has supplied nuclear and missile tech to Vietnam for decades.

It could very well be. There is not what-if, the rest is history. At this time, most of us do not consider India as an enemy. Before I started reading PDF, I did not even know there are so much Indian hostility to China.

 

[Nilgiri]

Move on with your current status and we are implementing project for our future and India can't do that and that is well know fact. This is US version of assessments but it will be eye opener for you and then compare it with what India can offer to China and it will be not even peanut.

https://defence.pk/threads/hudson-institute-pakistan-the-pivot-of-the-world-once-again.436453/

I already know what the CPEC is and have discussed it many times in various threads. You can look up my post history w.r.t CPEC search term and talk about it in those threads. That subject is off-topic in this thread.

I am strictly talking in reference to India - China trade and relations w.r.t NSG. Pakistan play no role in this whatsoever....it is not an NSG member neither is it a significant trade partner of China currently. Future projects of CPEC taking off is like me saying India is going to be a 10 trillion USD Nominal GDP in 10 years (there are articles about this just like the wonderful "everything goes right" CPEC projection articles for Pakistan). It bears no relevance to the issue at hand here w.r.t NSG which is in the here and now or at most the very short term (1 - 2 years). I mean FDI to Pakistan has actually declined severely from 2014 to 2015,

http://unctad.org/en/Pages/DIAE/World Investment Report/Country-Fact-Sheets.aspx

Let us not make this topic a discussion about Pakistan economy....because all the positive parts of it rely on the CPEC future. A total amount (over many years and based almost entirely on loans rather than direct investment) of which is roughly equivalent to one year of FDI into India currently...or one year of India's trade deficit with China.

You really don't want to compare India and Pakistan's economic importance to China or worldwide....the numbers just dont stack up in your favour at all...whether it be demand or supply of investment such as China wants from India compared to anything that Pakistan can offer:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms

(Just one example, I really dont want to post more and derail further)

Keep the discussion NSG-specific please.

 

[shah1398]

If I was an Indian I would term this guy damn scary. People out there might counter many of his arguments except this one.

But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to wait for the right moment.

In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose.

 

[AndrewJin]

The BJP government's misadventure to pit Beijing against New Delhi on a global forum will incur a huge cost.

POLITICS
| 5-minute read | 25-06-2016

ASHOK SWAIN
http://www.dailyo.in/user/11846/ashoswai
The Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) annual plenary session in Seoul ended on June 24 even without a discussion on India's membership application. Whatever the official spin, this outcome was not unexpected.

No one questions India's eligibility to be a member of this exclusive club, however the diplomatic blitzkrieg approach Narendra Modi and his foreign policy "team" took to achieve it raises serious doubts about their basic understanding of the realpolitik in the post-2008 world.

This 'event management' style of foreign policy has become too costly for India.
By not becoming a member of NSG, which was formed mainly in response to India's first nuclear test in 1974, India has not lost much per se.

Most of membership benefits have been already accrued due to the grant of an exemption by this export-control cartel, which was negotiated diligently by the UPA government in 2008.

Only tangible benefit India can get by being a member of the NSG is that it can prevent Pakistan from being a member in future.

Also read - Foolish to even think China will support India's NSG bid

Thus it is obvious to ask why Modi raised the stakes on pushing the agenda. Undoubtedly, it would have given him and his supporters the possibility to drumbeat the hype of his stature as a "global leader".

However, this "event management" style of foreign policy without a comprehensive global power analysis has become too costly for India.

Foreign policy success since the AB Vajpayee regime to de-hyphenate India from Pakistan in the global arena has taken a serious beating with Modi's misadventures.

Upon failing to get NSG membership, Modi administration tries to spin that it had managed to isolate China in Seoul and successfully created a near consensus in the favour of its application. This is merely a lie.

Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.

Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.

Since 2008, India had managed to secure itself from being censured on the NPT issue, but Modi has exposed India yet again.

The list of losses for the thoughtless hoopla over NSG membership is a long one. It has enhanced Pakistan to be hyphenated with India and has also exposed the country to global pressure over signing the NPT.

The immense negative blow of this senseless jingoism in Modi's foreign policy is that it has helped China to shed its inhibition in openly coming out against India in global fora.

Some Modi supporters are trying hard to paint it as a success as India is finally playing power politics at the big table.

Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal. China, in spite of its huge economic strength and massive domination in both conventional and nuclear military hardware, was reluctant to even enter into any confrontation with the global power system until the 2008 global financial crisis.

But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to wait for the right moment.

In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose. We have a ballooning trade deficit vis-à-vis China.

In the last year, deficit figure has reached close to 50 billion dollars in China's favour. Moreover, while China exports telecommunications equipment, computer hardware, industrial machinery and other manufactured goods, India sends back mostly raw materials such as cotton yarn, gems and other precious metals like copper and iron ore.

The character of exported goods exposes the state of industrial development of exporting countries. On industrial and economic development fronts, India lags at least two decades behind China, if not more.

In economic terms, India needs China more than China needs India. While China is extremely adept in dealing with emotive issues, not affecting its bilateral commercial ties, India does not have much experience in managing this contradiction.

After open confrontation over the NSG membership, the hawkish views on China within Sangh Parivar could very likely gain traction and that might affect bilateral trade relations.

China not only has the upper hand over the bilateral trade, but also upstream control over a large portion of India's river water, originating from the Himalayas.

While India has been traditionally playing the powerful role of an upstream riparian vis-à-vis Bangladesh with respect to the Brahmaputra river, that honour has now gone to China after its decision to build five major dams on the river.

Also read - Politics behind India's bid for NSG

China has also built dams on the upper reaches of the Indus and Sutlej rivers. India is now to a large extent dependent on China for the execution of its grand river-linking plan to meet the growing water scarcity in the country.

China's influence is immense on most of India's neighbours. One doesn't need to elaborate China's control over its "iron brother" Pakistan and "ideological brother" Myanmar.

For many years now, China has also cultivated its strategic assets in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives.

Even in Nepal, China is playing the role of a kingmaker. To counter China in the neighbourhood, India possesses a single Dalai Lama card, and that is fast losing its importance in front of China's increasing global power and influence.

It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China.

While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.

The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.

The latter's nuisance value is immense over India's goals of achieving economic development, food security as well as internal stability and regional cooperation.

Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council.

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html

Not trying to influence your opinion but i believe China should never submit to psychological warfare being played by India...Indians are shamelessly trying to make China appear bad cop despite knowing others opposed their bid too. This shows a very rude and unethical on part of India. It requires tremendous confidence (shame u should read) to do such thing. I believe that China should keep pressure on India time by time. It is very necessary to put them in check. They have opposed CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) , singed Logistics agreement with US, involved in encouraging China and Pakistan separatist factions, blocking of Nepal and what not. If allowed go uncheck, they'll wreck havoc in this region. They need some nice and humble attitude and only Pakistan and China can provide them that. They need some really serious taming because they are riding too high, crossing their limits and looking down upon us.
On the other hand, We Pakistanis are going very well along with you. Will Love to see more close cooperation with you guys in future in every arena of the world.

@Chinese-Dragon @rott @grey boy 2 @GS Zhou @AndrewJin @Beast @Dungeness @beijingwalker @oprih @cirr @+4vsgorillas-Apebane @Tiqiu

Very sharp analysis.
But most of them know zero about geopolitics.
Good news for all its neighbours.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Very sharp analysis.
But most of them know zero about geopolitics.
Good news for all its neighbours.

We call them prestitutes.
These guys are out and out commies, more rabid in their approach than you politburo.

That they are against India and current dispensation does not come as surprise most of Indians.

That you think that crap is sharp is not surprising either.

 

[AndrewJin]

We call them prestitutes.
These guys are out and out commies, more rabid in their approach than you politburo.

That they are against India and current dispensation does not come as surprise most of Indians.

That you think that crap is sharp is not surprising either.

Naive.

 

[grey boy 2]

Naive.

Ignore the obvious frustrated little man "TRUTH HURT"

 

[My-Analogous]

I already know what the CPEC is and have discussed it many times in various threads. You can look up my post history w.r.t CPEC search term and talk about it in those threads. That subject is off-topic in this thread.

I am strictly talking in reference to India - China trade and relations w.r.t NSG. Pakistan play no role in this whatsoever....it is not an NSG member neither is it a significant trade partner of China currently. Future projects of CPEC taking off is like me saying India is going to be a 10 trillion USD Nominal GDP in 10 years (there are articles about this just like the wonderful "everything goes right" CPEC projection articles for Pakistan). It bears no relevance to the issue at hand here w.r.t NSG which is in the here and now or at most the very short term (1 - 2 years). I mean FDI to Pakistan has actually declined severely from 2014 to 2015,

http://unctad.org/en/Pages/DIAE/World Investment Report/Country-Fact-Sheets.aspx

Let us not make this topic a discussion about Pakistan economy....because all the positive parts of it rely on the CPEC future. A total amount (over many years and based almost entirely on loans rather than direct investment) of which is roughly equivalent to one year of FDI into India currently...or one year of India's trade deficit with China.

You really don't want to compare India and Pakistan's economic importance to China or worldwide....the numbers just dont stack up in your favour at all...whether it be demand or supply of investment such as China wants from India compared to anything that Pakistan can offer:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms

(Just one example, I really dont want to post more and derail further)

Keep the discussion NSG-specific please.

From next year FDI will increase and now CPEC is move on construction phase from planning phase so your point is irrelevant otherwise tell me where this 46 billion will go?. Also please don't compare apple with oranges or my D is bigger then your D things, that is very old tricks and we are very familiar with it. Thank you

That reply did not concern Pakistan one little bit. How much does Pakistan trade with China (its all weather friend) compared to India do you know?

Stop this crap and come to real world and listen to these people and i know Indian do have listening problem

https://defence.pk/threads/hudson-institute-pakistan-the-pivot-of-the-world-once-again.436453/

Also check post # 11 of same thread

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Naive.

I could ask for independent media from your country.
Alas, I must be "naive" to ask for something like that, am I right?