India and NSG-News, Updates and Discussions.

[Nilgiri]

hehe,
looks like the tyrannical mindset has gone to your ego now, but then I don't blame you, I do sympathize.

What can one do. He is obviously frustrated how small countries like Vietnam and Philippines continue to stick it to the "Middle Kingdom" with the whole world watching in amusement as China does nothing after years and years of anticipation of their defence crazies.

So has to chest thump whenever the occasion presents itself to feel better

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What can one do. He is obviously frustrated how small countries like Vietnam and Philippines continue to stick it to the "Middle Kingdom" with the whole world watching in amusement as China does nothing after years and years of anticipation of their defence crazies.

So has to chest thump whenever the occasion presents itself to feel better

LOL it's funny you mentioned the Philippines and Vietnam, because we seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012 (and America abandoned their mutual defence treaty instead of helping their treaty ally)... and the Paracel islands from Vietnam.

If losing large chunks of territory to China is called "sticking it to the Middle Kingdom", then India qualifies too, since they lost an even bigger chunk of territory (Aksai Chin) to China.

By that definition, the Ukraine is a big winner too.

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

LOL that's the whole point, it wasn't China's "victory" at all. It was irrelevant. India has NSG waiver anyway so it didn't mean anything.

We said we won't discuss India's entry, we have veto, end of story.

Yet the entire past week was nothing but Indian members claiming that they had "already isolated China" and "47 out of 48 countries supported India" and "China doesn't have the guts to veto when America is supporting India!"

No, sorry. A veto is a veto.

I have no problem with India getting in, as long as they give us something that can further our national interests. Not this hysteria, trying to "guilt" us into letting them in for free, even though we were never friends to begin with. They paid out of their nose for American support and the US didn't even deliver for them, they could have negotiated with China as well and saved themself this drama.

Wait a minute dragon,today u're saying we let India in if it offers something reasonable..
Tomorrow u'll be the bad guy again when u'll try to block Ind's entry into the UNSC.
So I think,a hostile country like India with boneheads in the foreign office and with a nation celebrating a stupidly agressive prime minister,doesn't even deserve a place in the NSG.India is still not mature enough to handle power and authority with responsibility.
For China,everything can't be bussiness oriented.Letting India enter the NSG if they offer lucrative stuff gives it a chance to eye a seat in the UNSC which will have strategic implications for China and needless to say,Pakistan.

 

[Nilgiri]

That won't happen because I never said China will veto India forever.

Hell, nobody even cares if India gets in the NSG or not, they already have the waiver. It's irrelevant.

But India sold their sovereignty to America in return for the NSG seat (which America could not deliver), we simply want similar payment. The nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals that Modi offered are a good start, but clearly weren't good enough.

We aren't friends, so no free favors. You guys can pay like everyone else.

The waiver and NSG membership are not exactly equivalent (I have posted on this somewhere in one of the million other threads about this topic).

Rest of your point is fair enough said. Lets see what happens.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Wait a minute dragon,today u're saying we let India in if it offers something reasonable..
Tomorrow u'll be the bad guy again when u'll try to block Ind's entry into the UNSC.
So I think,a hostile country like India with boneheads in the foreign office and with a nation celebrating a stupidly agressive prime minister,doesn't even deserve a place in the NSG.India is still not mature enough to handle power and authority with responsibility.
For China,everything can't be bussiness oriented.Letting India enter the NSG if they offer lucrative stuff gives it a chance to eye a seat in the UNSC which will have strategic implications for China and needless to say,Pakistan.

Honestly, I don't really care if India uses their power responsibly or not. That has nothing to do with me.

What matters the most for me (in geopolitics) is China's national interests.

Modi can be aggressive as he wants, I could always do with a good laugh. If he wants to smash his fellow Indians again, that's their own business. I won't shed crocodile tears over it, my duty is to my fellow Chinese citizens, not to Indians.

If one Chinese citizen gets an improvement in their living standards, that matters a thousand times more to me than anything Modi will ever do.

 

[Nilgiri]

LOL it's funny you mentioned the Philippines and Vietnam, because we seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012 (and America abandoned their mutual defence treaty instead of helping their treaty ally)... and the Paracel islands from Vietnam.

If losing large chunks of territory to China is called "sticking it to the Middle Kingdom", then India qualifies too, since they lost an even bigger chunk of territory (Aksai Chin) to China.

By that definition, the Ukraine is a big winner too.

South Tibet is way bigger than Aksai Chin....who claims it (and cant do anything about it) and who controls it? Even when your best friend was getting ripped apart in 1971, you just sat there on the other side even when Nixon goaded and begged you to intervene. Couldn't even take just your claim back in 1971 when Indian army was occupied elsewhere...probably because you remembered what happened in Sikkim to your PLA adventure in 1967.

The difference from 1962 to 1967 and 1971 is simply going to be repeated now with NSG 2016....like you said its a matter of time....and no we are not going to permanently offer the Chinese much at all. We can sign some airy-fairy MOUs that we will scrap later but thats about it.....but just watch China relent anyway....with barely anything in return. We should all just sit back and watch the fun unfurl....it has just started.

Anyways, one shoal from the Philippines and attacking the South Vietnamese when they were facing their biggest crisis ever...by the all-powerful China.....pretty pathetic. I would expect from the talks of you lot that you would take all the "occupied" SCS islands back by force in just a few days or weeks.....yet you continue to hmmm and hawwww with each passing year and shake your fists at B-52s flying overhead and foreign destroyers sailing right inside your claimed territorial waters.

Vietnam and PH come off each year as big winners in this whole SCS thing the longer China continues the status-quo because its simply afraid. Its fun to needle you guys about it....year after year....because you do nothing year after year other than complain and protest. Oh and you took a shoal back....good job....one shoal every decade is the target for China now? Thats not a paper tiger?

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

Honestly, I don't really care if India uses their power responsibly or not. That has nothing to do with me.

What matters the most for me (in geopolitics) is China's national interests.

Modi can be aggressive as he wants, I could always do with a good laugh. If he wants to smash his fellow Indians again, that's their own business. I won't shed crocodile tears over it, my duty is to my fellow Chinese citizens, not to Indians.

If one Chinese citizen gets an improvement in their living standards, that matters a thousand times more to me than anything Modi will ever do.

Whatever will happen to your national interest if Modi gets a veto power ?

 

[imran169]

The first line of that article is: "A new book alleges..."



And somehow we are still one of the only 5 internationally recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, who are also the UNSC P5.

While only a few countries in the world are still locked out of the NPT, namely India/North Korea/Pakistan/South Sudan.

If you want in, come and ask. But this ridiculous hysteria isn't achieving anything for you, except forcing China to harden its position.

They would even eat their shit* to prove that China makes Pakistan Nuclear Power just to counter India...And the whole world watched and did nothing! And this they can prove from A BOOK written by any Tom, Dick and Harry...!

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Whatever will happen to your national interest if Modi gets a veto power ?

In the NSG? Nothing. They already have the waiver, who cares.

 

[war&peace]

For Indians...Who were jumping up and down on every thread that 47 out of 48 countries have supported India's application...it was only EVIL China...!
-------
Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.

Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.

After China, Switzerland is the most hard nut to crack for any country...It is not part of any economic agreement i.e. EU, Eurozone...it is the most independent country in the world. They will let Indians take selfies with them and they will even smile for a few snap but they won't support anyone until they are 100% convinced that's the right thing to do and even Uncle Sam cannot do anything against them .

 

[I M Sikander]

@Chinese-Dragon dude, just chill. We are not getting into NSG, you can sleep easy.

Its not just chine its the rest of 16 countries out of 48 who opposed Indians application for nsg membership.

Modi needs to look beyond just Pyar ki Jhappi diplomacy.
China playing its cards very well and ruthlessly.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We can sign some airy-fairy MOUs that we will scrap later but thats about it.....but just watch China relent anyway....with barely anything in return.

Deja vu.

From a few days ago:

So why wasnt China the lone-dissenting voice for the NSG waiver in 2008 and stop it mightily and independently in its tracks from proceeding to completion?

Was Hu-JinTao really that much of a weakling?

Like I said, who cares if India gets NSG membership or not, they already have the waiver anyway, so it's irrelevant.

If India wants it, they can pay up like they did to America. Or they won't. Irrelevant either way.

 

[grey boy 2]

Good read, thanks the op for sharing
An strict forward no nonsense "Death certificate" for the Indians NSG bid failure

(1) Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal.

(2) It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China
While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.

(3)The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.

While Indians calling for China's head will continued as expected.......
"Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council."

 

[Nilgiri]

Deja vu.

From a few days ago:



Like I said, who cares if India gets NSG membership or not, they already have the waiver anyway, so it's irrelevant.

If India wants it they can pay up like they did to America, or not. Irrelevant either way.

OK let me change my question to....what will your reaction be if China relents and lets India in without anything concrete in return (just like the NSG waiver) prima facie? Or will you justify it then as something was agreed to behind the doors?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

OK let me change my question to....what will your reaction be if China relents and lets India in without anything concrete in return (just like the NSG waiver) prima facie? Or will you justify it then as something was agreed to behind the doors?

Like I said, I don't care.

Pay up, or not. Both outcomes are basically irrelevant to me.

I don't like to predict the future because the future always changes (like India still joining our SCO project even after the veto). Something Indian members need to learn.