India Air force को Rafale नहीं Gripen fighter planes चाहिए...!

[randomradio]

LCA have HAL/Edgewood Mission computer consisted of twin computer based on 8088 Processor, housed in a single unit.

That's gone.

Even the IAF Mig-29 has a new AESA suite based on the UREP.

Rafale have Thales developed and propitiatory MDPU which have 18 line replaceable units. Now you are comparing both. Brother, give some time, and read more in depth. And kindly read about the Avionics upgrade architecture of the upgraded Mirage 2000 for IAF.

Do you know what is SPECTRA by the way ????????

 

[arp2041]

Yakeen Maniye!!

 

[zebra7]

That's gone.

Even the IAF Mig-29 has a new AESA suite based on the UREP.

Certainly I am doubting you. I am not trying to make fun on you, but I consider you very knowledgeable earlier on, but your response make me think now.

So, just two question, and no need to copy paste just in a simple words in your own language

1. What is Signal Processing Programming ??

2. What is French Spectra ??

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

LCA have HAL/Edgewood Mission computer consisted of twin computer based on 8088 Processor, housed in a single unit. Rafale have Thales developed and propitiatory MDPU which have 18 line replaceable units. Now you are comparing both. Brother, give some time, and read more in depth. And kindly read about the Avionics upgrade architecture of the upgraded Mirage 2000 for IAF.

Do you know what is SPECTRA by the way ????????

Are You joking? . If so, seriously underpowered.

Gripen A/B used a proprietary 32 bit Multithreaded Computer D80E, and was programmed in Pascal/D80.
(Pascal with Ada like extensions).
Gripen C/D is based on PowerPC, and has a mix of Pascal and Ada.
Gripen E, no clue...
Think the MIPS 64 bit Multithreaded Core would be suitable for these applications.

JF-17 is programmed in C++,
which is a good way to ensure that You shoot Yourself in the foot - with a cannon...

What language is used for LCA?

 

[zebra7]

Are You joking? . If so, seriously underpowered.

Gripen A/B used a proprietary 32 bit Multithreaded Computer D80E, and was programmed in Pascal/D80.
(Pascal with Ada like extensions).
Gripen C/D is based on PowerPC, and has a mix of Pascal and Ada.
Gripen E, no clue...
Think the MIPS 64 bit Multithreaded Core would be suitable for these applications.

JF-17 is programmed in C++,
which is a good way to ensure that You shoot Yourself in the foot - with a cannon...

What language is used for LCA?

That was the example, given to my Indian friend. And keep your Programing language with yourself, because in the end its the logic that's matter. As far as LCA or any Military aircraft is considered, the logical choice is ADA.

For LCA Mission computer OSMAC check this

As far as JF-17 avionics developed in C++ is considered, it dosen't effects me because my guess is only the Display computer is programed in C++ due to availability of Open source graphic framework, and large number of programers available in China to cut the cost. And its foolish to assume, that all other computers like weapon store and management computers, Mission computers and Radar computer are programed in C++, rather in ADA.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

That was the example, given to my Indian friend. And keep your Programing language with yourself, because in the end its the logic that's matter. As far as LCA or any Military aircraft is considered, the logical choice is ADA.

Logic with poor implementation results in bugs, and C++ allows poor implementation.
Ada will not allow certain bad behaviour.

 

[zebra7]

Logic with poor implementation results in bugs, and C++ allows poor implementation.
Ada will not allow certain bad behaviour.

So this will clear your doubt VxWorks OS, and programed compiled in ADA for LCA Tejas OSMAC Mission computer.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

So this will clear your doubt VxWorks OS, and programed compiled in ADA for LCA Tejas OSMAC Mission computer.

Thats more like it....

 

[randomradio]

Are You joking? . If so, seriously underpowered.

Gripen A/B used a proprietary 32 bit Multithreaded Computer D80E, and was programmed in Pascal/D80.
(Pascal with Ada like extensions).
Gripen C/D is based on PowerPC, and has a mix of Pascal and Ada.
Gripen E, no clue...
Think the MIPS 64 bit Multithreaded Core would be suitable for these applications.

JF-17 is programmed in C++,
which is a good way to ensure that You shoot Yourself in the foot - with a cannon...

What language is used for LCA?

LCA has PowerPC. Even the Gripen E will have PowerPC. It's practically gold standard. The MDPU also has PowerPC.

 

[zebra7]

LCA has PowerPC. Even the Gripen E will have PowerPC. It's practically gold standard. The MDPU also has PowerPC.

Dear @randomradio, with due respect, I like you and I fully agree that you have more knowledge than me. You are also a senior member in Indian defence forum. So if you take my argument in a positive way, then I want to share some thing with you, and pls judge it, and then decide.

Its not the PowerPC, or some other Processor. MDPU means, say for Rafale 18 PowerPC housed in a single unit, which lowers the power consuption, space required, heat generation, and in case of upgrades or repair/maintainance the line replacable unit of MDPU unit could be swap in a few minute, rather to replace the whole Mission computer unit and would need a single power supply than the indivisula power supply units. You can even compare it with the Blade Server in Computing in a layman term. Those 18 CPU works in parallel, making it 18 times more powerful than the single CPU operation naturally.

Earlier in your comment you mentioned UEWS and UREP. UEWS is the EW suite architecture developed by DARE. And its an artitecture not any single device to combine RWR, LWR, MAWS Graphic and various sensors and equipment to work in a system between Graphic computer, Mission computer, Weapon store management, connected with a standard. Similarly Spectra is a single word for the whole architecture of the RWR, LWR, MAWS, Internal Jammer, IRST and the software to combine them, and networked to each other, so that they could work in a cordination and provide the necessory information to the pilot in the real time commanly known as Sensor Fusion.

When we are discussion MDPU, I mean the processing power, something like super computing for the Mission computer, which can generate such processing power to manipulate, analyse the data in an airborne aircraft getting those updates from various sources, whether its another aircraft, UAV, Tank or even a soldier on battlefield. And what you are comparing is the EW suite UEWS an architecture developed by DARE with the help of Israel and its more conceptual, and for that you don't need to develop any equipment, and could be designed with various sensors and equipment sourced from various OEMs.

That is why I consider Rafale and EF2000 as fifth Generation combat plane, and for SU-35 don't have much detail knowledge, but certainly could also be in that category. Gripen does not come close to these capabilities, could be fansy for many, but SAAB don't have such expertise to develop, nor it have such resource to feel positive in the future, the max it will outsource it from Eurofighter or Thales, but we have to developed it indigenous, not because of LCA or MKI but because of AMCA, and its not the hardware that is important, rather the Algorithm which is the Key.

Why I am laying emphasis on this, because it will reduce the space required to house in much packed LCA, better maintainace and easy upgrade possible, and Sensor fussion. Couple of more technologies needs to be developed on the LCA MK-2 which will make way of the AMCA easy, such as Optical fibre based bus, rather than ethernet based, high speed 2 way tactical data link to connect UAVs and Smart Weapons and low heat signature Engine.
LCA MK-2 should be the test bed for the AMCA, and without such computational power, only a fanboy could chest thump, for the peculiar shaped, black Radar wave absorbent painted, so called 5th Fighter plane, but for me its just a 4th Gen plane and without powerplant a TIN CAN.


@Abingdonboy @dadeechi @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA

 

[randomradio]

Dear @randomradio, with due respect, I like you and I fully agree that you have more knowledge than me. You are also a senior member in Indian defence forum. So if you take my argument in a positive way, then I want to share some thing with you, and pls judge it, and then decide.

Its not the PowerPC, or some other Processor. MDPU means, say for Rafale 18 PowerPC housed in a single unit, which lowers the power consuption, space required, heat generation, and in case of upgrades or repair/maintainance the line replacable unit of MDPU unit could be swap in a few minute, rather to replace the whole Mission computer unit and would need a single power supply than the indivisula power supply units. You can even compare it with the Blade Server in Computing in a layman term. Those 18 CPU works in parallel, making it 18 times more powerful than the single CPU operation naturally.

Earlier in your comment you mentioned UEWS and UREP. UEWS is the EW suite architecture developed by DARE. And its an artitecture not any single device to combine RWR, LWR, MAWS Graphic and various sensors and equipment to work in a system between Graphic computer, Mission computer, Weapon store management, connected with a standard. Similarly Spectra is a single word for the whole architecture of the RWR, LWR, MAWS, Internal Jammer, IRST and the software to combine them, and networked to each other, so that they could work in a cordination and provide the necessory information to the pilot in the real time commanly known as Sensor Fusion.

When we are discussion MDPU, I mean the processing power, something like super computing for the Mission computer, which can generate such processing power to manipulate, analyse the data in an airborne aircraft getting those updates from various sources, whether its another aircraft, UAV, Tank or even a soldier on battlefield. And what you are comparing is the EW suite UEWS an architecture developed by DARE with the help of Israel and its more conceptual, and for that you don't need to develop any equipment, and could be designed with various sensors and equipment sourced from various OEMs.

That is why I consider Rafale and EF2000 as fifth Generation combat plane, and for SU-35 don't have much detail knowledge, but certainly could also be in that category. Gripen does not come close to these capabilities, could be fansy for many, but SAAB don't have such expertise to develop, nor it have such resource to feel positive in the future, the max it will outsource it from Eurofighter or Thales, but we have to developed it indigenous, not because of LCA or MKI but because of AMCA, and its not the hardware that is important, rather the Algorithm which is the Key.

Why I am laying emphasis on this, because it will reduce the space required to house in much packed LCA, better maintainace and easy upgrade possible, and Sensor fussion. Couple of more technologies needs to be developed on the LCA MK-2 which will make way of the AMCA easy, such as Optical fibre based bus, rather than ethernet based, high speed 2 way tactical data link to connect UAVs and Smart Weapons and low heat signature Engine.
LCA MK-2 should be the test bed for the AMCA, and without such computational power, only a fanboy could chest thump, for the peculiar shaped, black Radar wave absorbent painted, so called 5th Fighter plane, but for me its just a 4th Gen plane and without powerplant a TIN CAN.


@Abingdonboy @dadeechi @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA

Okay, let me explain it this way.

MDPU has 19 LRUs with 18 usable slots in 1 rack.

Now, each of these slots can hold one of these CFMs. Each CFM can be dedicated to either processing or memory or any other function. When you say there are 18 slots, it doesn't mean all 18 slots are dedicated for data processing only. Only a few slots are for data processing. So the MDPU doesn't carry 18 processors in parallel.

When the MDPU was first made, its data processing slot held only one processor, this was back in the 90s. So if you wanted more, you would need more slots to carry one processor each. Now, things have changed and new multicore processing units are being made. So each of those slots can now carry multicore CPUs, which can potentially reduce the requirement for data processing slots.

Now, this sort of setup is available on all aircraft, including the MKI. However the problem with older aircraft and the MDPU equipped aircraft is, older aircraft had different processing modules for different functions while MDPU was designed as a hub for all computation activity. So the MKI needs a separate mission computer, a separate radar computer etc which makes sensor fusion very difficult. The MDPU removed such a problem.

Now, when we talk about the UREP, it is designed to be similar to the MDPU. It is basically a big box that carries processing hardware. It also has multiple slots. However, the UREP right now is restricted only to the Mig-29/LCA's 'Spectra' if you want to call it that. Naturally, we do not yet know its hardware architecture, so we cannot do a direct comparison to the MDPU yet.

What makes Rafale special is not just the MDPU, it is the software that integrates all the hardware. Apart from being difficult, doing this is also expensive. But at the same time, it is something that can be done in all aircraft. Developing something like the MDPU is actually easy, all the hard work comes after that.

 

[Mitro]

So much halla gulla for what none is coming keep talking blah blah blah

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

What makes Rafale special is not just the MDPU, it is the software that integrates all the hardware. Apart from being difficult, doing this is also expensive. But at the same time, it is something that can be done in all aircraft. Developing something like the MDPU is actually easy, all the hard work comes after that.

Do not Forget "Virtualisation"

Systems Virtualization.

For the modernization of a new standard, there was classically integration of new hardware, and new software should always be created in order to use them.

To oversimplify, each software depends on the hardware on which it was created to function. How to ensure that the Rafale software can continue to evolve in the coming decades, without having to rewrite everything should the equipment change? Simple answer: virtualization!

Virtualization allows a hardware abstraction. The software works in an environment that will remain the same throughout Rafale life, and only the software part (hypervisor) for the interface between the hardware and this environment will be adapted.

When installing the first MDPU models based on a new processor generation in 2006, engineers have started the system, and everything worked ... the first time!

If further tests had to be performed to ensure the non-regression of the aircraft systems, no rewriting software code on which depends the Rafale weapon system was necessary.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-4#ixzz4C9HKQ8GF

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Do not Forget "Virtualisation"



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-4#ixzz4C9HKQ8GF

Great, the Rafale has an operating system running on its flight computer .

LCA has PowerPC. Even the Gripen E will have PowerPC. It's practically gold standard. The MDPU also has PowerPC.

Yes, but the H/W Multithreading in the 64 bit MIPS core gives you much better control over real time performance.
For each thread, you can define how much CPU cycles should be used.
It is also fine grained, so You can run all threads at a constant speed.
1 thread gets 10 MIPS, while another gets 50 MIPS etc.
That said, a core without the stuff around it is not useable.

Now, this sort of setup is available on all aircraft, including the MKI. However the problem with older aircraft and the MDPU equipped aircraft is, older aircraft had different processing modules for different functions while MDPU was designed as a hub for all computation activity. So the MKI needs a separate mission computer, a separate radar computer etc which makes sensor fusion very difficult. The MDPU removed such a problem..

You can handle such problem with a message passing S/W architecture pioneered by ENEA,
located in Northern Stockholm.
This allow heterogenous systems to cooperate, and also allows networking several Gripen computers
as they were one.
Sweden, and especially SAAB (and Ericsson) has very good competence on hard realtime S/W.
It is not a cooincidence that Wind River (VxWorks) has a large office nearby.

 

[randomradio]

Great, the Rafale has an operating system running on its flight computer .



Yes, but the H/W Multithreading in the 64 bit MIPS core gives you much better control over real time performance.
For each thread, you can define how much CPU cycles should be used.
It is also fine grained, so You can run all threads at a constant speed.
1 thread gets 10 MIPS, while another gets 50 MIPS etc.
That said, a core without the stuff around it is not useable.



You can handle such problem with a message passing S/W architecture pioneered by ENEA,
located in Northern Stockholm.
This allow heterogenous systems to cooperate, and also allows networking several Gripen computers
as they were one.
Sweden, and especially SAAB (and Ericsson) has very good competence on hard realtime S/W.
It is not a cooincidence that Wind River (VxWorks) has a large office nearby.

I believe everybody is using PowerPC.