Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes

[Surya 1]

There are many reasons for this and requires a long answer. But the most obvious reason I can see is the potential of demographic change they could bring (a large portion of that region becomes Muslim) and the associated fear it brings. To prevent this Muslims have to be continually demonized

No not only that but because of the fear of what they will do when they are in majority.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri

Interestingly, I was just reading a research paper written by an educationist Mariam Chughtai from LUMS. The topic of her research is, “what produces a history textbook in Pakistan”, this woman is an erudite in her field. I would highly recommend you both to read it. Maybe it ring a bell and you find similarities in Indians history textbooks.

Is this Mariam Chugtai the same individual involved in Imran Khan's Single National Curriculum initiative? The one who took on Pervez Hoodbhoy recently in a debate?

 

[Areesh]

Is this Mariam Chugtai the same individual involved in Imran Khan's Single National Curriculum initiative? The one who took on Pervez Hoodbhoy recently in a debate?

Yes

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes

Gave Hoodbhoy a well deserved beat-down - even his own leftist/liberal elite supporters couldn't salvage much for him, with some even criticizing Hoodbhoy's somewhat misogynistic/sexist responses during the debate.

But anyway, back to the topic. I apologize for going on a tangent.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

This article is so spot-on. Indian liberal homes have been complicit in demonizing and dehumanizing Indian Muslims, especially those of a lower economic strata.

Despite my partial Muslim background, I have endured many such conversations (not directed at me) as in childhood, most classmates and friends in Mumbai took me for a bona fine Hindu. It was only due to a Hindu name and surname. That's all you need to pass as Hindu in India unless someone enters your home and gets to know your family members. It's a huge unspoken privilege which someone with a Muslim name does not enjoy. By benefiting, I have also been complicit in these discriminations.

@xeuss

 

[Moonlight]

Is this Mariam Chugtai the same individual involved in Imran Khan's Single National Curriculum initiative? The one who took on Pervez Hoodbhoy recently in a debate?

Yes.
It’s a very informative piece of reading. The data collection is from 1938-2012 so it does make a lot of sense of what she has to theorized. And she has addressed numbers of misconceptions on how the history texts book are piled up. A well researched paper.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Even if there were no religions, people would have found a way to legitimize wars.

No proposed solutions or in depth analysis here, just observations which may be entirely incorrect so just bear with me as I put thought on paper (keyboard).

Religion is perhaps just one of the many labels we use to justify our tribalism.

Whether faith, race, ethnicity, language or nationality - they all contribute to our core tribalistic sentiment.

So it's not so much about atheism vs religion as it is about finding a means to tamp down on that sense of superiority using X label or labels.

The right wing, xenophobia and hatred of the 'other' is continuing to rise in the US and Europe, and, at least relative to the structure of government education in South Asia, I don't think one could argue that education is primarily 'rote' (touching upon one of @Nilgiri s points). AND you have significant diversity & engagement between peoples of different races, ethno-linguistic groups, religions etc - so what's missing?

So which set of Hindus should the rest of us Hindus take our bearings by? Do you represent anyone other than your faction?

Sounds so similar to comments I often make when in discussions about 'imposing Shariah or an Islamic system'

Which Shariah? Whose Shariah?

 

[xeuss]

@Joe Shearer,

Nothing surprising here. This is something most of us Muslims believe. The fascists that are in power today are because of the normalization of hate within Hindu society. Even well meaning Hindus, who detest what is going on in the name of Hinduism in India, still have a difficulty in accepting Muslims as being "different".

How many times, liberal Hindus have held discussions among themselves and often derided the Sanghis narrative as fake, because the "Abdul" or "Ahmed" is not like how the Sanghis make the Muslims out to be. That is precisely the problem. So many times, I have been told by my Hindu friends, that I am not like the "other Muslims", whatever that is supposed to mean. This "otherization" is what leads to dehumanization that culminates in the society that we have now become.

Here is a story that I have posted previously....but bares repeating. When I was first called a Pakistani, at an age when I did not even know what Pakistan was, and I came home and told my parents that so-and-so kids called me a Pakistani in a bullying way, my father said to my mother, and I still remember it vividly - this is what their parents have been talking inside their houses about us, that is why the kids are repeating it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer,

Nothing surprising here. This is something most of us Muslims believe. The fascists that are in power today are because of the normalization of hate within Hindu society. Even well meaning Hindus, who detest what is going on in the name of Hinduism in India, still have a difficulty in accepting Muslims as being "different".

How many times, liberal Hindus have held discussions among themselves and often derided the Sanghis narrative as fake, because the "Abdul" or "Ahmed" is not like how the Sanghis make the Muslims out to be. That is precisely the problem. So many times, I have been told by my Hindu friends, that I am not like the "other Muslims", whatever that is supposed to mean. This "otherization" is what leads to dehumanization that culminates in the society that we have now become.

Here is a story that I have posted previously....but bares repeating. When I was first called a Pakistani, at an age when I did not even know what Pakistan was, and I came home and told my parents that so-and-so kids called me a Pakistani in a bullying way, my father said to my mother, and I still remember it vividly - this is what their parents have been talking inside their houses about us, that is why the kids are repeating it.

I have a lot to say on this, but in private, because it will seem to be selective memory. Both your post and that of AgNoStiC MuSliM above are directly relevant to the problem. I also just got a phone call from a pretty progressive friend saying he felt that this was exactly the problem. This private conversation that is never public.

 

[Joe Shearer]

True, many seem to have missed what the article was trying to say.

but "casual hatred" is a not just a bad way of framing it, it is wrong.

Most people (educated, wealthy, liberal, your everyday upper middle class type basically) are wary of Islam, doesn't mean at all that they hate all the muslims. Indeed, a lot of them count muslim people as among their friends.

This article also makes a sneaky small 2 line mention about:



"warn" LOL.. give me a break !

but very clever, 1 line on the muslim attitude towards others and then muddy the water by dragging in some anecdote about a Christian convert relative.

Is she serious ? Has she absolutely no grasp on the realities on the ground ?

Muslims are by far the most insular community in India. Sunnis, to be specific.

Everybody else on one side, mostly united and proud Indians..... and then there's the sunnis. This is the unfortunate truth of and in India.

Another user here put it quite crudely and asked "why muslims are hated the world over" or something to that extent. It's quite simple, they just do not assimilate, could it be the ideology that prevents them from doing so ? Don't want to get into a theological thing but "shirk" or idolatry is considered among the biggest no-nos for them.

Heh, well good luck with such a rigid unconciliatory, and dare I say it, supremacist attitude in a place like India.

Sure there's extreme right winger Hindu zealots in India and they can be a problem but this conversation is only half had if you're brushing the extremely deep rooted Sunni zealotry and animus aside.

Shame there is no scientific way to quantify it but if there was, I'll bet the Hindus' and others' feelings would measure significantly lower on the "hate scale" compared to the sunni muslim lot.

You see, this is the precise point, in mirror image, that the article makes.

Unless as a society, we put these things on the table and openly talk about it, the harm it causes and the corrective measures, we will not move forward.

I am glad you wrote what you did. Although I don't entirely agree, this had to be said. Perhaps I was looking too hard at the BJP, therefore at Hindu supremacism, and missed this altogether.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Even well meaning Hindus, who detest what is going on in the name of Hinduism in India, still have a difficulty in accepting Muslims as being "different".

Again, the bulk of well-meaning Hindus. There are exceptions, heavily congregated within Marxist/ Communist circles.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Is this Mariam Chugtai the same individual involved in Imran Khan's Single National Curriculum initiative? The one who took on Pervez Hoodbhoy recently in a debate?

I found her paper a most fascinating account.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Despite my partial Muslim background, I have endured many such conversations (not directed at me) as in childhood, most classmates and friends in Mumbai took me for a bona fine Hindu. It was only due to a Hindu name and surname. That's all you need to pass as Hindu in India unless someone enters your home and gets to know your family members. It's a huge unspoken privilege which someone with a Muslim name does not enjoy. By benefiting, I have also been complicit in these discriminations.

Did you read the post by Virus? Did you go through the opposite experience, of Muslims privately on guard against Hindus?

 

[ps3linux]

Dear @Joe Shearer , @Nilgiri and others there's a point to ponder about:

In my part of the world there's a saying that the foundation for division of India was la8d when first Muslim set foot in India.

I beg to differ I say the foundation for division of India was laid the day a local embraced Islam and was disowned by the locals.

My family embraced Islam almost 700 years ago, we have always been locals, over 3000 years of recorded history.

You know what the price was, forced abdication from the throne and whole family became malicha. No one accepted as being Rajputs anymore.

Well the point I wanted to make was correlate this with my earlier post, about religious people, Hope you'd get what I am trying to establish.

Sorry, me travelling tomorrow so hopefully will get back tomorrow eve.

PS: I hope you keep the thread focussed despite efforts by few to bring it to their level, we know what that means.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sounds so similar to comments I often make when in discussions about 'imposing Shariah or an Islamic system'

Which Shariah? Whose Shariah?

I thought that an obvious weakness in the argument of that faction - their appropriation of the voice of the entire, rather than of their faction, or even of their group within the faction.