Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes

[Joe Shearer]

I hope you keep the thread focussed despite efforts by few to bring it to their level, we know what that means.

I was actually surprised, even chastened by the reactions of two members who came in with very honest posts. It tells me I have to fix my own compass; I'm discounting everybody and everything to the right of me, and have just been shown that it isn't right.

 

[-=virus=-]

You see, this is the precise point, in mirror image, that the article makes.

Unless as a society, we put these things on the table and openly talk about it, the harm it causes and the corrective measures, we will not move forward.

I am glad you wrote what you did. Although I don't entirely agree, this had to be said. Perhaps I was looking too hard at the BJP, therefore at Hindu supremacism, and missed this altogether.

Of course we needn't agree entirely on any matter but I'm glad you have ignored a few of my transgressions here and chose to reply to my post.

Just trying to have a bit of fun with the flame bait stuff.. the upside is that the nasty ones out themselves rather quickly when baited.. lotsa pink names here as a result of that... haha

It is a tough but necessary conversation to have but I'm really not sure there is a solution to it.

In my observations so far, it appears that the Indian sunni Muslims are, as a collective, way more rigid, stubborn, and unwilling to cede so much as an inch of their ideological ground.. the Shia, Ismailis, Bohras and others not so much (for context)

Historically, and you would certainly know much more than most here, even great armies have surrendered in the face of overwhelming odds and looming defeat.

Take these demands for the right to slaughtering the cow and bull to be recognized as a "human right" and "freedom of religion" as an example of a wedge issue.. that is just ridiculous in a place like India.

and then to double down on it is even more ridiculous.

Simply put, the Hindus have had enough.. and everyone's screaming "nazi !!!"

oh please.

broad brush here, of course.. because we are a 1.5 billion odd lot here but you understand.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It is a tough but necessary conversation to have but I'm really not sure there is a solution to it.

It is not important to be sure of success (I seem to be typing this line a lot these days). It is important to be sure that we tried, and didn't just shrug and turn away, thinking it couldn't be done at all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In my observations so far, it appears that the Indian sunni Muslims are, as a collective, way more rigid, stubborn, and unwilling to cede so much as an inch of their ideological ground.. the Shia, Ismailis, Bohras and others not so much (for context)

You know as well as I do what generalisations can do to common sense. None of these groups is an impermeable rock.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Take these demands for the right to slaughtering the cow and bull to be recognized as a "human right" and "freedom of religion" as an example of a wedge issue.. that is just ridiculous in a place like India.

I don't think so at all. It is wholly unacceptable in certain areas of the country; in others, it is wholly acceptable. Why can't we leave the regions concerned to work it out? Why do we have to polemicise this issue and compel every part of India to fall in step? It didn't bother anyone for fifty or a hundred years; why is it suddenly so special?

 

[-=virus=-]

I said, sir.. that I type with a very broad brush here.

in a personal capacity, i happen to be very friendly with a few muslims, sunnis

from a higher up sales guy/manager at a very big car company to a Kashmiri airline pilot (who I often pester for aviation tips and who helped set up my flight stimulation desk) and few in between.

but then again.. middle/upper middle class types who are doing quite well.. hamdullah !

but is 1.5 billion diverse peoples ka kya karein... beyond me.

let allah take care of it

 

[-=virus=-]

I don't think so at all. It is wholly unacceptable in certain areas of the country; in others, it is wholly acceptable. Why can't we leave the regions concerned to work it out? Why do we have to polemicise this issue and compel every part of India to fall in step? It didn't bother anyone for fifty or a hundred years; why is it suddenly so special?

I agree

was making a point only about the parts of the country where it is a big deal, and they shouldn't be doing it in those parts.. but they do anyway.. as an act of defiance and stubbornness..

and when the inevitable response comes

they cry "facist/nazi"

not going to end well if they keep poking the hornet nest because reasons

the sunni zealots are like an ant staring down the wheels of a Jagannath procession

they should try and negotiate and strike a conciliatory tone and respectfully assimilate while in India.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

@Joe Shearer,

Nothing surprising here. This is something most of us Muslims believe. The fascists that are in power today are because of the normalization of hate within Hindu society. Even well meaning Hindus, who detest what is going on in the name of Hinduism in India, still have a difficulty in accepting Muslims as being "different".

How many times, liberal Hindus have held discussions among themselves and often derided the Sanghis narrative as fake, because the "Abdul" or "Ahmed" is not like how the Sanghis make the Muslims out to be. That is precisely the problem. So many times, I have been told by my Hindu friends, that I am not like the "other Muslims", whatever that is supposed to mean. This "otherization" is what leads to dehumanization that culminates in the society that we have now become.

Here is a story that I have posted previously....but bares repeating. When I was first called a Pakistani, at an age when I did not even know what Pakistan was, and I came home and told my parents that so-and-so kids called me a Pakistani in a bullying way, my father said to my mother, and I still remember it vividly - this is what their parents have been talking inside their houses about us, that is why the kids are repeating it.

Same experience I can say that I don't look like Muslim whatever that suppose to mean.

 

[-=virus=-]

Same experience I can say that I don't look like Muslim whatever that suppose to mean.

no stacheless big beard

no ankle high pyjama

no mullah topi

means you do not "look like a Muslim"

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

no stacheless big beard

no ankle high pyjama

no mullah topi

means you do not "look like a Muslim"

Can be applied in both ways too.

 

[-=virus=-]

Can be applied in both ways too.

what do you mean ?

how many tika sporting kurta pyjama wearing Hindus do you see in the big company job market as executives etc ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

was making a point only about the parts of the country where it is a big deal, and they shouldn't be doing it in those parts.. but they do anyway.. as an act of defiance and stubbornness..

Why is it that precisely that part of the country that feels so strongly about these issues has the maximum number of people who want to take up such issues? So the maximum population eating beef faces the maximum opposition to eating beef.

It may not be acts of defiance and stubbornness; beef is cheaper than mutton. Possibly you are a vegetarian, and you might not know about meat prices.

Another strange thing. The further south and the further east we go, the less and less the resistance to eating beef.

 

[Imran Khan]

without losing anything we Pakistani liberal having free experience to see india and learn how will be rule of Islamic right wing in pakistan . this is what they will do as hindu right wings have did . thanks to indian public for this .

 

[Joe Shearer]

how many tika sporting kurta pyjama wearing Hindus do you see in the big company job market as executives etc ?

Not in the big company job market as executives, sure, but they infest the north, the entire Hindi speaking belt. Surrounded by a visible cocoon of pan-spray. I mean, have a heart; they aren't rock stars.

 

[-=virus=-]

Why is it that precisely that part of the country that feels so strongly about these issues has the maximum number of people who want to take up such issues? So the maximum population eating beef faces the maximum opposition to eating beef.

It may not be acts of defiance and stubbornness; beef is cheaper than mutton. Possibly you are a vegetarian, and you might not know about meat prices.

Another strange thing. The further south and the further east we go, the less and less the resistance to eating beef.

not a major issue for me tbh.

In the far east/north east it is staple diet and not an issue culturally mostly, those laws do not apply there there anyway. Fine by me. In the south as well.

There is however, a significant section of Indian people, for whom it is a big deal, mostly, though not exclusively confined in the northern states.

How rude and frankly, disgusting, is it for people to take the piss on their deeply held spiritual beliefs ?

such a beautiful noble beast.

people from other countries may or may not 'get it'

but for Hindus within India to be all smug "haha, burger and steak khayenge, eid pe qurban karengey" ... what the hell is wrong with you bc ?

we're not done with you smug asz qurbani loving liberals yet.. congress under pappu is at 52

inko 30 - 20 - 10 - then zero karengey hum, just like the cpi etc

you watch, uncle Joe, watch.